Midlife Makeover podcast features Tara and E.J. kerwin on relationship renovation

Wendy Valentine: Welcome to the Midlife Makeover Show. I’m Wendy Valentine, and today we have a fantastic episode lined up for you with two, two incredible guests. Tara and E.J. kerwin, the dynamic duo behind relationship renovation. They are relationship experts and founders of a thriving counseling practice in Tucson, Arizona, where they help couples strengthen and transform the relationships with empathy, communication, and connection. Through their Relationship Renovation Counseling center podcast and their at home program, which we’re going to talk about today, they’re providing powerful tools to couples around the world to help them create deeper, more fulfilling partnerships. We’ll be diving into a topic that so many couples experience but often struggle to talk about. Desire disparity. Have you ever. Let me ask you this. Have you ever felt like you and your partner are on different pages when it comes to intimacy? Maybe you’re the one feeling rejected, or perhaps you’re feeling guilty for not wanting intimacy as much as your partner does. Well, Tara and EJ are here to share their expert advice on how to open up meaningful conversations, build intimacy beyond sex, and create small yet powerful connections that can bridge the gap between high desire and low desire partners. If you’ve ever felt the frustration, confusion, or disconnect in your relationship around this topic, you’re not alone. And today’s episode will provide the insights and tools you need to navigate it with love and understanding.

Wendy: That might be my favorite introduction on the show

So, without further ado, please welcome Tara, and E.J. kerwin to the show.

Tara Kerwin: That might be my favorite introduction.

E.J. Kerwin: Love the energy ever.

Tara Kerwin: So thank you, Wendy, for so, so happy to be here. That was awesome.

Wendy Valentine: You are so welcome. Isn’t that nice? We should just, like, record those and then you just play it when you wake up in the morning, you know?

E.J. Kerwin: Exactly. It’s like a hype song.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Tara Kerwin: Also like to bring that lightness to something that can feel so hopeless to so many couples. I feel like that energy is what’s needed to kind of. Right. Be able to even begin the conversation. Because we see a lot of couples who have to deal with that despair and they feel really hopeless. And so.

The desire disparity is something that many couples come in with during relationships

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, let’s, let’s start there. What is this? The desire disparity? Explain what that means.

E.J. Kerwin: I mean, this is something that, that so many couples come in with. you know, one of the things that couples love when they talk to us is that, you know, a lot of times it’s stuff that we can directly relate to, and so they don’t feel like, oh, my God, I’m the only one who’s dealing with. You know, it’s. It’s just the Fact that oftentimes, right at the beginning of a relationship, ah, the fireworks are going off, and both people have that. That excitement level. And, you know, you just feel it’s easy. You know, sex and intimacy are so easy at the beginning of a relationship oftentimes. And then, you know, life gets complicated, and there’s. There’s big changes that happen, and there’s kids, and there’s all kinds of things that happen. And. And it’s inevitable that. That one, the high desire partner, and one person becomes the lower desire partner. And then figuring that out is,

Tara Kerwin: And it changes too, throughout. Like, yeah, right. Because I know when each and I met, I was the higher desire partner. And then after the twins were born, I was like, don’t even look at me. Like, it changes throughout. but the one thing that we recognize is that people, the couples don’t talk about it. They don’t talk about the changes or the transitions.

E.J. Kerwin: So.

Tara Kerwin: So now it’s just this disappointment or this, like, anxiety, like, oh, my partner wants to have sex, and I don’t know. And so we really help couples to soften it and start to talk about what it’s like for each of them, because both of them are suffering when that disparity is there, but they don’t talk about it. They really just start to blame each other. And then they come into our center, which we’re so grateful for, and just let them know, like, first of all, this is normal. And this happens to almost every single couple out there. We just don’t have the skills to talk about it because it’s really vulnerable. most of us weren’t taught how to talk about intimacy and our needs and our wants when we’re younger or just, like, you know, sex is great and it’s supposed to feel good, and if you do it a lot, that’s awesome. Like, really, that’s what we get. And so we going through our own. I mean, constant. Right. We’ve been together for, what, 14 years? Okay, got that right. I feel like, right. God, universe gives us what we try to take and learn from, and then we can give back to others. And so we’ve had to deal with the postpartum, now perimenopause, and we were just really stuck in it. Yet here’s two therapists, right, that have the skills. And. And that’s when we were just compelled to, like, do what we could talk about the things. And then that’s when we opened up our counseling center. Because I said, if. If two of us EJ are having a difficult time navigating this. And I’ve been in Mar therapist for over 20 years. I said, we have to help couples in our community. So it was from that that we grew in this way to help so many couples around the world feel normal and not broken, and that it takes skills to navigate this. It’s not that it’s organic in our body. Like, oh, I’m going to let my partner know that I feel really rejected. Like, no, we don’t do that. So. Yeah, and that was.

Wendy Valentine: No, that’s awesome. And I was just thinking, too, like, I mean, every day we’re different just individually, right? Like, not every day we wake up the same feeling, the same. We have bad days, we have good days. And then, of course, that affects the relationship. And then we’re not always on the same page all day, every single day. And, yeah, like, one person might be stressed because of a meeting coming up. One person is dealing with hormones, one person’s dealing with the kids, or there’s all sorts of things going on individually and then collectively. And then you’ve got like, oh, oh, yeah, there’s that sex piece, the intimate part that we’re supposed to like, oh, yeah.

Tara Kerwin: Ah.

Wendy Valentine: You know, and then sometimes I feel like. I mean, I guess I can only speak for myself in this, but sometimes you end up like, oh, you do feel bad. Like, oh, my gosh, I’ve been working so much, I probably should go ahead and. And have sex even though we’re not feeling like it.

E.J. Kerwin: Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: instead of just opening up the conversation and saying, hey, you know what? I’d rather just cuddle on the couch. That would be great.

E.J. Kerwin: I mean, I think that’s like, one of the. That’s like. The big thing is there’s so many contributing factors. You know, there’s so many things going on as far as, like you said, stress and life changes and then maybe dysfunctional communication after a while or emotional disconnection. But sex is the thing where it’s like the, It’s the major symptom. You know, it’s the thing where couples come in and they’re like, you know, we haven’t had sex in six months or a year or it’s so infrequent. And so it’s something that we kind of help them untangle of, like, understanding. Like, this isn’t one thing, you know, this is a collection of, you know, like, when we have a kid, you know, we. It’s an explosion, and our life, you know, becomes way more comp complicated in literally M24 hours. And we divide and conquer. You know, like, Tara stayed home and she dealt with the twins and she and I took on all of her clients and, you know, and we survived and we got through it. But there was like this misalignment where we were just pulling apart and pulling apart. But luckily, you know, we were creating this center. We had to practice things that slowly brought us back together. But it took a lot of effort. It took a long time.

Tara Kerwin: And it’s still intentional. Right? We have to have our daily check ins. We have to talk about all this stuff, especially me going through perimenopause. but I think what like, a lot of couples don’t realize is that both of them are both feeling like, sad and some grief around it. They just.

The biggest thing EJ and I had to do was recognize the difference between intimacy

It’s not expressed. And so when we get to help couples express what that grief is like, I know for me, I was grieving that I didn’t have like, sexual energy anymore. I was so sad. But all I knew was like, I didn’t know how to talk about it. And so I would just like, avoid EJ and I didn’t want date nights because that felt pressure.

E.J. Kerwin: Yeah. I was like the source of the problem because if I, if I wanted to engage in that way, I was confronting you with your grief and you were like, stop doing that. Like, stop. I mean, there were times where we had conversations where you were just like, just pretend I’m broken. Pretend. Like, that doesn’t work anymore.

Tara Kerwin: V*‘s broken. Okay.

E.J. Kerwin: You know, and, and so. Which was hard for me because I was like, okay, I. You’re broken. Like, what do I do with that? Like, you know.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, it’s interesting that you said that about like that pressure of like, okay, let’s go on a date. And it’s almost like expected. Even if you’re like, even back when you’re dating, right. And then even when you’re married, like, we’re going to go on a date and then afterwards, you know, like, it’s like, oh, but maybe we shouldn’t go on a date then, you know?

E.J. Kerwin: Yeah.

Tara Kerwin: I mean, the biggest thing EJ and I had to do was recognize the difference between emotional intimacy and physical intimacy. And I want to say this is just with more of like the like, male, female, like, for whatever reason, right. There’s more of that, like physical intimacy energy with the male. And for me, like, I just need to feel connected and loved and snuggled. But when we don’t talk about it and EJ doesn’t have that like emotional safety to open up to because he’s just feeling rejected and he’s feeling unloved and he’s feeling invisible and he’s feeling not liked. Like, that’s so hard for me to like ask and make those requests because he’s like, well, you’re you. I just feel like I’m not seen at all, so why should I do this for you? And so that was our biggest work was like EJ softened up where I felt like his energy, it didn’t have that pressure anymore because before that, before he was really doing that work for himself. I could feel it. I would be like wearing this cute outfit and I’m like, oh, he’s looking like he wants to undress me. And so, I’m just not going to wear cute underwear anymore.

E.J. Kerwin: Like, well, and it was interesting because like, you had all this focus on like the sexual side. And I heard what you said a lot, which was like, I need to feel safe. It needs to be like this emotionally positive environment between us. And then like I would walk in the door and like, literally just my presence would, would, would elicit like resentment and, and frustration. And I was just like, well, how do I create that environment for you if my mere existence seems to like, like repulse you?

Tara Kerwin: You know, we’ve worked through that. Thank God we’ve worked.

E.J. Kerwin: I mean, it was. But that, that’s the thing with couples that we have to like, really get them tuned into is like, these are not quick solutions, you know, and a lot of it wasn’t, A lot of it was tied to dynamics between the two of us. But so much of it was about both of our internal work. You know, it was like, like for me, it was a lot around, you know, around understanding my own defensiveness and my own like, ways that I would shut off during conflict. And you know, and every couple has their sort of like intricate soup of who they are when they come together. And, and you know, we try to disentang, untangle that and help them gain insight and honestly become empathetic. I became. There were like key moments in our relationship where I feel like my empathy level like grew significantly because I just. We had long conversations. I understood things that were going on for Tara that I didn’t understand, you know, prior to that moment.

Wendy Valentine: It’s interesting with intimacy how it can feeling one sided, especially when it’s not talked about. You think it’s all about, okay, he’s not interested in me, he’s not attracted to me. There must be Something wrong with me or I’m not like, it’s, it’s I, I, I. Until you kind of open up those conversations and then you learn like, oh, I didn’t know you were actually feeling that way. And you, he didn’t know I was feeling this way. So it’s, it’s interesting that, you know, it does seem like in the beginning, I, think of any issue, it’s always very one sided and a tendency to probably point the anger. Like it’s, it’s because of him or it’s because of her that this is, this situation is like this.

Tara Kerwin: Oh yeah. When we’re uncomfortable, we still want to blame other people. It can’t be me.

E.J. Kerwin: Well, it’s so much easier in some ways to like, look and say like, well, if you would just be nicer, then I would be able to like, back off. You know, it’s, it’s easier because, like, she’s in front of me. I can see, I can see her and I can and I feel like I can, you know, interact with my environment and change it to make myself feel better. And it’s much more confusing to look inward and be like, what’s happening for me? You know, what is this? Instead of focusing on ways in which I’m being rejected, I need to look in and be like, why am I so uncomfortable with that? like, why am.

Wendy Valentine: Right.

E.J. Kerwin: Why is that triggering my insecurity and how can I work through that? So even if she does say, hey, I’m not interested or, or hey, this, you just have to write this off for a while. That I can be like, okay, okay, because that’s about you and that’s your request and I love you and I’m willing to, you know, I’m willing to, to work through this with you.

Tara Kerwin: Hence the eyebrow plucking. That wasn’t our eyebrow plucking. Like, honey, I’m willing to pluck your eyebrows and groom you. Like, that is what I can give to you intimately right now. And he loved it. We were like little monkeys grooming each other. I mean, I was like, here’s what I literally can do. Because my body l literally, literally Wendy felt completely numb. And I do want to say something about, you know, I, I know that. And we’ve worked with a lot of couples around this where there’s just like, oh, it’s been two weeks. And I know like, they’re going to be like, pressuring me. So I’m just gonna like, give in and just do that thing. And it actually, like, what we found is it just leads to so much internal resentment to the partner who’s just, you know, kind of. What’s the word I want to use?

E.J. Kerwin: Just surrendering.

Tara Kerwin: Surrendering. And then we notice, because we do a lot of somatic work couples too. Like, when we are going through our intimacy series with couples, like, their bodies are telling the story of, like, I wasn’t open to you. I was just doing this as, like, a chore, a task. And, like, so when. Even when they’re, like, starting to touch or whatever, it’s like, you know, your nervous system goes into, like, almost flight, fight, or freeze. And so we have to help couples do safety containers with intimacy.

There’s a narrative that if we don’t have sex, our relationship is broken

Like, make sure that your little central nervous system is not all jammed up when your partner is touching you and massaging you. Like, so if you guys can just do five minutes of touch and making, an agreement. There’s no sex, right? We have to do a ton of safety containment in order to build that intimacy back up with a lot of couples where intimacy has, been ruptured, but it’s also this beautiful process because their whole body now is responding in a different way. You know, it’s just that narrative that, like, sex is a chore. That’s not true. That if we don’t have sex, our relationship is broken. That’s not true. But my goodness, can our brains make those narratives very quickly?

E.J. Kerwin: Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, there’s beliefs that, you hear from other people, friends, family, social media, and then you start to think, oh, my gosh, there’s something wrong. Or maybe there’s not anything wrong. Maybe. I mean, there could be, but it’s just getting. Getting it out into the open.

You mentioned wanting to feel feminine energy again after going through perimenopause

I want to say you. You mentioned something earlier about you not feeling, like, that. That feminine energy. And. And at the same time, you were, like, wanting to feel that feminine energy again and that sexuality. And at the same time, you’re, like, trying to turn it back off. And so you’re. You’re kind of going back and forth. And I love what you said that it’s like, if you, like, okay, maybe you’re. You’re wanting to. To kind of get back into your femininity and feel that, put on the cute panties or the cute little outfit or whatever. But with having that, like, okay, I just want to do that and feel that way without, like, let’s just make an agreement. We’re not having sex, though. Like, just to be able to kind of step into your feminine power without that pressure of having sex.

Tara Kerwin: It’s.

Wendy Valentine: Or Maybe you do.

Tara Kerwin: Like, I mean, I mean, I do it all the time now because I’m trying to. Especially going through perimenopause and like, my progesterone was zero. What happened to my body? What happened to my brain? I’m doing anything and I. And everything to just feel that because I’m such a feminine person with that energy, it’s like, why EJ fell in love with me. Like, I would exude that. And now I’m like, I’m a dry piece of, ah, toast that’s burned. So anything that I can do to get that feminine, whatever. And I feel so safe with ej. Ej, thank you, really, because we’ve gone through a lot. it’s because of that we can do this. and it means the world to me because I don’t have to hide it or feel pressure. And it did take a lot of work, but. And we see with our other couples, there’s so much hope. And I feel like couples give up too easily because it’s that whole, like, the grass is greener or something. And it’s like, I’m so thankful that I have this partner who’s willing to go through the depths of menopause h* and whatever it is that I’m trying to learn from it and also accept it because, I would feel really alone in it if I didn’t have you in this way. And I feel like so many people out there are suffering and they feel alone in it. They can just help each other, like, hold compassionate space. It’s like, pretty incredible because I truly don’t know how I would feel without EJ in my corner because the depression and anxiety, I never even knew, like, I thought postpartum was bad after twins, like the h*. It’s like an every two hour thing. I’m just like, yeah, I mean, I.

E.J. Kerwin: Think, I think partners of the person, you know, the, the. The partner that’s the more high desire, you know, really has to like, take a deep look at what their commitment is. You know, for me, there were like a couple of big, like, breakthrough moments. Like, it’s. It’s been a, you know, years now, but there was just a moment where I was like, this is. I have to accept. We have this whole short module on, acceptance versus resignation, you know, like that I think I had been in resignation that just like, well, you know, whatever. I guess there’s nothing I can do. I guess I just, you know, I just accept that I’m, This. There’s this one aspect of our relationship that just isn’t going to happen. And I moved into acceptance of, like, you know, this is where it is right now. And I know I love her. And if it’s. If what I have right now is that we lay in bed together and we sleep together, and we have really wonderful conversations on Saturday nights, out by the pool, I’m okay with that. And, you know, and. And that. And so that was, like, my first, like, breakthrough moment was just like, whatever I have right now is enough, and I’m hopeful and trusting that it’s gonna change, but this is. This is enough, you know? And then. And then the next level was. Was then it. Then it took a lot of pressure off, because even now, you know, I mean, I don’t know. I don’t even know what, you know, is a, Is a healthy frequency and, you know, or whatever of, like, how often you should. But I just don’t think about it anymore, you know, or if I do, I. We talk about it. Like, we’re like, hey, you know, what’s going on? And I don’t think Tara feels the pressure. The pressure anymore. but it took. It was like. Some of it was definitely, you know, interpersonal, where we had to talk about it and make it normal. Talking about sex and deal with the. The. The disruption that. That might. That might bring on. If it triggered Tara, or if it triggered me.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

E.J. Kerwin: But then a lot of it was just, like, I had to, like, work through the process on my own and figure out my own insecurities and, And figure out my own ways. Maybe I avoided talking about. Because I didn’t want to create conflict.

Tara Kerwin: Well, and it’s, It just reminds me, because we had so many couples were like, if we don’t start having more sex, I’m gonna go outside of the relationship. And it’s, like, to use it as a threat. And I’m like, well, hang on. Like, we can’t. Like, let’s just make an agreement. We can’t use that as a threat right now. Let’s do this work. But it’s like, that’s where people go, like, if you can’t meet my needs, I will. I mean, we have so much infidelity at our center, and we have so much healing through it. So that’s amazing. But it’s like, don’t. Don’t go there first. Let’s try.

The word you said earlier that was key was acceptance

Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: I mean, there’s, like. I think a lot of couples, they make, like, such strict guidelines whether, you know, whether it’s or not. I mean, they’re just like, okay, if this isn’t happening in X amount of time, then boom. Like, wait, just relax. Like, you know, it’s like anything in life, right?

E.J. Kerwin: Like, take the pressure off. Right? Like, that adds like, God, is that gonna help?

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. I think the. The word you said earlier that was key was acceptance. And I, I think of, like, acceptance. It’s been. It was my word last year. Acceptance and surrendering. Right. Like, I think a lot of times we think waving the white flag is a sign of weakness, but it’s actually a sign of strength and just taking a deep breath. Okay. And I. I find that when we quiet our minds and our hearts and emotions and. And our physical energies, we actually can hear more, like, with. Within ourselves, most importantly, and then within our relationships. Lips. Yeah.

Tara Kerwin: Like the true sticker on your water bottle. Let that go.

Wendy Valentine: Let that go. If you’re watching on YouTube. Oh, man. In doubt. Own, it out.

E.J. Kerwin: Yeah, it’s. It’s so. It’s so interesting though. It’s, It’s paradoxical though, you know, because it’s. And. And the, The. The line between it being healthy and it being unhealthy are so close because on some level, surrender. Surrender is good because it’s like, okay, I’m just letting go of this. I’m not going to, like, chew on it constantly in my mind. I’m not going to focus on this constantly, but it’s not surrender. And like, I give up.

Tara Kerwin: Yeah.

E.J. Kerwin: Right.

Wendy Valentine: Right.

E.J. Kerwin: And, that’s the important differentiation for people is like, because if I give up, then Tara feels like I give up on her. But if I surrender and I say, like, you know, I’m just. I’m letting go of this and I’m focusing on what we do have. And then. But we’re going to continue to talk about this, right? We’re going to continue to have healthier, and healthier conversations. Because the truth of the matter is in that. In that desired discrepancy, neither person is in an enviable place. But yet, like Tara mentioned before, both people think the other person is in the better position. You know, that Tara is like, well, I wish I had sex drive like you.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

E.J. Kerwin: And then, you know, on some level, I’m like, well, I wish I could just be the one who found a way to gain sex drive back. Like, I’m just sitting here with it with nothing to do with it. Right.

Tara Kerwin: Yeah.

E.J. Kerwin: You know, and there. And. And that’s where we have to get into, like, empathy of, like, you know, God, like, tell me more.

One concept I would love your listeners to hear is uncompromised intimacy

What’s it like for you and I don’t.

Tara Kerwin: One concept I would love your listeners to hear. And we had, a guest speaker on our podcast, I believe it was Dr. Jesso Zimmerman, called Uncompromised Intimacy. She wrote a book on it. And I remember when I heard that, it blew my mind. I’m like, what is uncompromised intimacy? She’s like, it’s about right? EJ used to, like, not say anything to me. Like, God, I think your b*** looks so good today, girl. Because he was like, I don’t want to. Like, she’s already stressed out. And so he’s compromising his own intimacy. His own. We call him, you know, frisky scale, because he’s caretaking me, right? And then if you start to do that, then you’re developing a codependent, unhealthy relationship. You’re using your sense of individuation. So we’ve gotten to a great point, and we help our couples do this. We’re like, I want AJ to be like, dang, girl, you are locked. Smoke it. Not that he uses that kind of, language, but. And I want to be like, thank you so much. Like, I still want him to want me, even if my frisky scales a zero. I don’t want him to, like, caretake me, because I love that. I know that he. That he’s still attracted to me. and couples don’t do that. They start to, like, write that. Eggshell walking. And so when that idea of uncompromised intimacy. This was a few years ago, like, I just. I feel like that’s so freedom. You’re not losing your autonomy or your own, Right. You can still say, hey, I’ve got to let you know my frisky scales a nine, and yours is a zero. That’s really freaking hard for me. And I’d be like, I’m so sorry. Like, and can I help you out with anything there? Thanks for sharing, but that’s kind of the conversations we have now. So we don’t have. So we can still be ourselves and. And not create that compromised intimacy, if you will.

E.J. Kerwin: Yeah. Can I share something, like, funny?

Tara Kerwin: Oh, I don’t know.

E.J. Kerwin: This is, like, a Perry menopause thing and, like, a discrepancy thing. So you. You know the hot flashes, Right?

Tara Kerwin: Oh, my.

E.J. Kerwin: So, like, I’ll wake up in the morning, and Tara’s, like, naked in bed. I’m like, hey. And then she’s like, no, I’m sweating That’s why they’re off.

Wendy Valentine: Back off.

E.J. Kerwin: Oh, okay. This is not, Okay. All right. We got different, We, have different perceptions of this moment.

Wendy Valentine: She’s like, you can wait eight minutes and it might be gone. I don’t know.

Tara Kerwin: Do not touch me, buddy.

E.J. Kerwin: Yeah, don’t even get caught.

In the high desire versus low desire are the ones with more physical energy

Wendy Valentine: So question for you. In the high desire versus low desire are the high desire, typically the ones that are more physically attractive, like, have that more that physical energy. And the low desire is more on the emotional side of the spectrum.

E.J. Kerwin: I think it’s just. I don’t think there’s any, like, real, you know, breakdown of it because. Okay. Just because there’s so many contributing factors, you know, in.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

E.J. Kerwin: Stress. You know, like, stress is when we’re all susceptible to stress, and stress, like, diminishes sex drive for. For many people because you’re just central nervous system is so taxed. I don’t know, like, what do you think?

Tara Kerwin: I mean, normally, right. High desire partner is one that wants to engage in physical intimacy more often, and the lower desire person just does not have those sexual feelings, those desires like the high desire partner does. And I can relate to that well, because in the beginning of our relationship, I was constantly wanting to, you know, pounce on ej and he. Right. He had been through a wicked divorce, and I think it was just different for him. And so still probably working through his own stuff. And I, remember thinking, like, oh, my gosh, like, is he just not into me, like, as the high desire partner? Because the physical stuff wasn’t there. I mean, my thinking has changed. And now that I’m on the other side, the low desire partner, like, yeah, it’s just like my little feelings, like, to engage in that physical, like, way, the clinging, like, the being together in your. With your body, it’s just not. I mean, it’s happening more organically now, but it’s just not there. So I feel like the sexual energy piece to me is like, hd. High desire, low desire.

E.J. Kerwin: I think there’s definitely, though, a dynamic within heterosexual relationship where. Where men are not as emotionally connected as their wives want them to be. And that. That is sustainable in the beginning for some reason. Like, it’s. It’s like, it’s manageable, but over years of. Of the. Of the husband not showing up in that way of not. Not understanding what he’s feeling other than, like, kind of happy, grumpy, annoyed. You know, he’s got, like, three emotions, and he doesn’t even express those in a clear way. That, that after a while the wife just feels so disconnected and, and unheard and doesn’t know what the heck is going on for their partner. That, that then their, their sexual desire goes away. Because it just, it’s, it’s that, it’s that emotional safety, like, and that, and that, that phrase is confusing to most men. They’re like, they, they start off by saying, I don’t feel safe. And and then the husband’s like, what. What are you talking about? Like, you know, I, you know, I barely raised my voice. I’ve never been physical with you. And then we sort of flesh it out a little bit. Like, what she’s talking about is emotional stuff, safety, that, that she understands what’s going on with you. That, that you’re emotionally attuned, that you notice her feelings, that you’re willing to listen to them without telling her she shouldn’t have them. You know, that’s, that’s a big thing that, that needs to be rebuilt is like, okay, we’re emotionally connected. That feels safe. And so now, yeah, I can connect again with you. With you sexually.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. I would think at the beginning of most relationships, it’s kind of like me, man, you, woman, you know, me, man, you, woman, me. I have the, you know, the masculine energy, you have feminine energy. And it’s a great opportunity to be able to like, really be very masculine and very feminine. And then, yeah, like, as time goes on, that me, man, you, woman, without any of that, like, like emotional support can kind of be like the woman’s like, I need a little bit more of that emotion in there, you know, like to. Yeah, yeah.

Tara Kerwin: And then get the flame going about. Yes.

E.J. Kerwin: Well, that’s. Yeah. And it’s confusing to the, to the man because he’s like, well, why, why weren’t we talking about this when we first got together? Why weren’t you telling me I was emotionally available?

Wendy Valentine: Because you didn’t care. You’re just like, I could give a.

E.J. Kerwin: Yeah, yeah, we were just having fun. But in some ways you are more emotionally present at the beginning, even if you don’t have that, that long term skill. Because, because you, you’re so like, enamored by the person that you’re like, asking them about their past and, and you’re learning about their family and. And then, you’re like, okay, well, I basically know everything about you. So like, I’m ceasing to be curious.

Tara Kerwin: The new car smell goes away and.

E.J. Kerwin: You’Re just like, yeah, yeah, you become habituated. Right.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. I was just thinking, too. It’s like high desire versus low desire. There’s not a right or a wrong. It’s not like the ultimate goal is to be, you know, high desire. Right. And it’s bad to be low desire. We toggle. We all do, individually and collectively. You toggle between the two?

Tara Kerwin: Absolutely. And how to. And how to be in acceptance of each other and have very intentional conversations when you are, whether fluctuating or going through that very intense low desire or high, higher desire.

E.J. Kerwin: I’m thinking even, like, in, like, episodic things. So we have this thing where I, I run a boys camp in Maine every summer I have for the past almost 20 summers. And so we go back there June, July, and August, and that’s a time where terrorist stress level goes down significantly. I mean, her sex drive goes up. Right. And. And there have been times where, like, you know, things have been kind of, you know, not happening in Arizona. We get there and we. And it goes up. And then like a week later, like, there’s like, one time where Tara wants to mess around.

M. M. talks about finding a healthy balance between work and vacation

I’m like, I’m. M. Like, tired. I’ve been up all day. And she’s like, what’s going on? I’m like. I’m like. She’s like the low desire partner for, like, 24 hours. And she’s like, hi.

Tara Kerwin: Desire.

E.J. Kerwin: Yeah. No, she’s. Yeah, the high desire for, like, 24 hours. And so it’s. So. It’s unsettling. I think it’s just a naturally natural thing that it’s. It’s unsettling anytime there’s a big discrepancy in that. Even if it’s just, like, episodic, it’s like, why don’t. I’m feeling this? Why aren’t you feeling this?

Tara Kerwin: Note to self. Because this was a. Not a lot of people get to go spend their summers in Maine at a boys camp where your laundry is done for you, where three meals a day are cooked for you, where you’re living just a tiny cabin on this beautiful lake, and your children are in camp all day, and then they’re sleeping in their bunks at night. So I literally from. Right. Managing a staff of 15 and all the groceries and all the cooking and our four animals. Like, I go from waking up at 5am and I don’t stop until 9pm to going to Maine, and literally my entire body is like, what do I do? And m. All of a sudden, my sex drive is, like, on. And so I’m like, what? How Do I create that when I’m here in Tucson and I haven’t quite figured it out yet.

E.J. Kerwin: We’re thinking virtual reality.

Wendy Valentine: I was gonna say, ej, that’s when you get on a plane. That’s why.

Tara Kerwin: But there’s three hours. That balance. Not. Not. Not having no responsibility, but there’s a balance that I know can be achieved. And that’s kind of what I’m trying to do right now. Yoga and meditation and, like, knowing that, like, I can only get this much done today. And I feel like that we don’t, We don’t get to have those extreme experiences. Right. Like I said, because most people don’t get to have that. You know, thankfully. That’s why I married you, ej, because you had a. A job in Maine. And I could go to. Just kidding. But recognizing that, like, literally, I thought I was broken. And then it was like, oh, my God, I’m so stressed out and constantly busy and overwhelmed that. That totally, like, sucks up any energy for intimacy. And so that there’s a part of that, too, like, because you’ll hear couples, they’ll go on vacation. Like, we had the best time of our lives. Like, we have sex on vacation. We’re so intimately. Well, guess what? You’re on vacation. All your things are taken care of.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Tara Kerwin: It’s really about how to create that healthy balance as much as you can also when you’re in reality. so I don’t have to be, like, nine months here, just constantly stressed in my nervous system, and then three. I mean, I’m grateful for it, but I. That’s what I’m. My goal, I’m working towards right now. With the two businesses we own and the four kids and the four animals. I mean, you know, entry.

Wendy Valentine: I mean, you can figure that out, right? How? Easy.

Why is it such a struggle for couples to have these Conversations

you know, I was just thinking, though, like, we were talking about acceptance earlier. I’ll throw in another A that popped in my mind is awareness. And like you were saying, it’s like kind of like trying to tap into yourself and trying to figure out what. What is it that. What am I feeling and why am I feeling this and how can I turn this on at another time? And. And it’s. It’s the awareness of how you feel in yourself and within that relationship. And. And I would say, most importantly, it’s. It’s bringing it out in the open. Right. I mean, I. I’m curious, and I’m sure you probably have an answer for this. Why is it such a struggle for couples to have these Conversations. It’s one of the most important topics I think within a relationship. But why aren’t they talking about it?

E.J. Kerwin: I mean. I’ll take the first part.

Tara Kerwin: Okay.

E.J. Kerwin: I mean the first part is we’re just not taught. I mean there, you know, we, most people’s programming around sex is. It’s bad, don’t bad and dangerous. Don’t do it until you’re married. And then it’s a beautiful, wonderful thing that you should do frequently. you know, and so we just have no context. Nobody teaches us how to talk about it. Nobody teaches us that it’s a normal thing to talk about it. Nobody helps you understand that it’s not just a physical thing, it’s an emotional thing. You know, it’s just like we’re not accultured in that way. So that’s our foundation. You know, if there’s any topic that’s complex that we’re never taught how to, how to speak about it, we’re gonna struggle once we’re supposed to do it.

Tara Kerwin: And I, you know, our entire model that we take our couples through is through an attachment lens theory. And it’s about. And we learn how to regulate our emotions from our environment, right? And if we’re turn, if we’re like, if we learn to like, don’t have uncomfortable emotions and like just you should be happy for what you have, whatever it is. We learn how to just put up our, our walls. And so now we get anxious attachment like, oh my God, like that neediness, like if they leave me, if they don’t call me, like something bad’s going to happen. And so there’s that anxious attachment or the avoidant att, like, oh, this emotion is coming at me. I have got to like push that away with a ten foot pole. obviously with more trauma backgrounds, there’s disorganized attachment. And so we learn emotion regulation or how to not regulate. And then uncomfortable feelings come up as adult and intimate relationships. Because this relationship is unique, unlike any other. And it’s like, what, what is that feeling? This must be about you. See you later. I mean, we don’t learn how to regulate. And so we really do try to. We do a whole going through a genogram and a timeline. Like we take that child from in the womb until the day they met. And we really help understand the regulation system. And then we do a ton of tools in session where people can get in their window of tolerance. Like, you don’t have to block that out anymore. It is safe to feel angry Anger is okay. It is safe to feel sadness. Sadness is okay. And once you’re. The therapist really creates that safety in the room, then they can go outside and have those awesome conversations and not hide from it or put their survival instincts on. So that’s a big part of it. Attachment.

E.J. Kerwin: and you have. You know, that. That balance of both individuals that, like, not only does, like, Tara have to become okay feeling those things and expressing things, I have to be okay hearing it and validating it and not. And not becoming reactive myself or not taking it personal or trying to solve the problem. You know that that’s where it gets complicated is both people moving towards what. What we want to help couples get to, which is a secure attachment. It’s like, I can express my feelings. Even if they’re complex, you’re gonna accept them. They’re not. They’re not personal. Or even if they are, you can handle it. And it creates this, like, feedback loop of, like, connection and. And. And love and support. And we are becoming our best selves.

Tara Kerwin: Together, and the relationship isn’t in a threatened mode.

Wendy Valentine: I’m so glad that you said that because I was just trying to think. I was like, there’s,

Tara Kerwin: You.

Wendy Valentine: You might know this. There’s a psychologist that said it’s like, basically you learn the most about yourself through a relationship. Like, being in a relationship is how you. Yeah. Do you know who that was? That.

E.J. Kerwin: I don’t know who that is. But we’ve. We’ve indirectly quoted them, like, thousands.

Wendy Valentine: I know. I can’t. I don’t know if it’s the one with internal family systems or one of the. Anyways, but it’s so true. Like, I mean, you couldn’t just sit in a cave and evolve into. You know what I mean? That would be great.

80% of our couples are like, it’s either this or divorce

We could just sit there.

E.J. Kerwin: Well, it doesn’t make sense too. Right. It’s like, why this person who I was the most most comfortable with is now the person who makes me feel the most uncomfortable. So then something must be broken. But yet everybody’s dealing with it. Like, nobody confronts me with my own insecurities and triggers my emotions at such a heightened level as.

Tara Kerwin: Tara, you’re welcome.

E.J. Kerwin: No one.

Wendy Valentine: No one.

E.J. Kerwin: And so I can look at her as a source of a problem, or I can look at her as, like, wow, she. This is an opportunity. Whatever this is. I’m feeling this is worth exploring and. And talking to her about.

Tara Kerwin: We. Yeah, we call each other like, our blind spots. And in the lobby, when you walk in, we have this big chalkboard sign that says, our partner is our greatest teacher. Be patient for the lessons.

Wendy Valentine: You just took the words out of my mouth. I was like, so proud of myself. I was gonna say, oh, it’s like your greatest teacher. Yeah, but it’s true, right? Like, would they. Whoever triggers you the most most is your greatest teacher. Like, those are where the lessons are.

Tara Kerwin: Yes. But staying with that in the society we live in today, with all that instant gratification and like, I don’t have to deal with this or there’s somebody else out there. That’s where, you know, our, I mean, our passion right now is to, like, obviously, like, not everybody should be together, but to do the work, to have that compassion for each other’s suffering and then make your decision right week. 80% of our couples are like, it’s either this or a divorce. I’m like, great, we’re going to take you through this process of having more clarity. Because right now it’s like, out of fear. So there’s this like, threat. So why don’t you make that decision after understanding all of it? Because now it’ll be out of clarity. That’s. It’s not about staying together, but it’s about making a really big choice with all of the knowledge that you can have.

Tara Kerwin: And understanding and empathy that you can have. And then. Right. Whether it’s for your children or whatever. Now you’re being, now you’re growing in a way that feels good instead of like, because guess what? It’s gonna show up in the next relationship if you don’t take care of it. And it does. Right? Third, second divorce. Wait, first marriages, it’s almost 50%. Second is 63%. Third marriage is 80, 70 something percent divorce rate. Why I could marry someone totally opposite of ej and if I don’t understand what my stuff is and do that processing, I could marry someone totally different. And it’s going to show up in a different way. And so that’s how I get the couples to be like, hey, it’s going to take like six months of h***. Like, it’s going to be awesome too. But like, don’t you want to be able to have.

E.J. Kerwin: What a selling point. You’re about to go through h*** with us. Buckle up.

Tara Kerwin: No, it’s just, it’s not linear. It’s not like you start couples counting m. It’s like, oh, this is awesome. It’s like, we really untangle, things in a really healthy way. But it’s not, you know, But I feel like that Clarity versus fear. Like, do you want to make this choice out of feeling super threatened and not wanting to be uncomfortable or do you want to be able to get uncomfortable and then be like, oh, okay. Right. And we found like most couples really, I mean you’ll, it’s we live like a couple blocks from our office and I will drive by every day and you see couples hugging in the parking lot. Our business is so overwhelming and we love it. I’m like, that’s why we keep doing this because there’s so much healing. And I just feel so proud of like our work that we’ve done. It started off with that and all of our therapists are amazing in our center and we’re like the hope holders. When people don’t have hope. Hope and then going through my, you know, midlife perimenopause, like hopelessness is like a thing. Like there’s times where you’re just like, is this ever like when is this gonna get better? But I also. So I can have that empathy of how people show up in relationship despair. But then right when I, we, we always say this when, when you’re, when you’re in a relationship and you feel alone, it’s worse than being single. You know, but when you can have this relationship and, and it feels good, then all the other stressors out there, it’s going to be easier to handle.

Tara Kerwin: You know, and that’s why I’m handling this probably better than I would if I. Yeah.

Doing the work on any relationship affects everything, Mang says

E.J. Kerwin: because we’re more connected than we’ve been and so we’re dealing with it.

Tara Kerwin: Yeah.

E.J. Kerwin: It’s not pulling us apart. If anything, you know, what to closer together.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. And it’s like doing the work on any relationship. Like worst case scenario, like let’s say you decide, okay, this is not, this relationship’s not going to work out. We’re getting a divorce. Well, I mean, at least you worked on yourself and you dug up some of those things that needed to be dug up and worked on. And then you’re a better person. You’re you’re better in all your relationships because that’s the thing. It’s like again, going back to like what you learn in your own, especially in your intimate relationship, it affects everything. It affects beer. It affects the relationship that you have with your children and the fact. And the relationship that they will have with their, you know, partners and their children. I mean, it’s just like this beautiful ripple effect. So it’s like do the work. You like do the work.

E.J. Kerwin: Sometimes that has to be the starting point for a couple where they’re, like, in such despair that we just say, like, okay, look, we don’t know where this is gonna end up. yeah. And let’s accept that. Let’s accept that we don’t know that. But let’s say, like, no matter what, you guys could learn a heck of a lot from what’s going on between the two of you right now. And so you can, you know, you can just bail right now and like, like, throw. Throw the baby out with the bath water. Or you can, you can do some work here and see where we end up, you know, and both, you know, at the end day, this is another big thing of like. And if you can both really focus on you.

Wendy Valentine: Yes.

E.J. Kerwin: If you can get out of pointing your finger. Let’s not spend these hours here telling, me what’s wrong about the other person. Let’s start every session taking responsibility for what you can take responsibility for and appreciating whatever it was that your partner did that made your life a little bit better this week.

Wendy Valentine: Yes.

E.J. Kerwin: And that creates significant shifts if people have the, like, the willingness and the discipline, you know, to stick with it.

Wendy Valentine: I would have to say for me, I’ve been married twice, divorced twice. And after that last divorce, I was like, I’m, I’m gonna divorce him and marry myself. I am going to work on Wendy. I’m going to take care of Wendy. We’re going to dig up all sorts.

E.J. Kerwin: Of.

Wendy Valentine: From childhood, 20s, 30s, and it was the greatest gift I gave to myself to spend that time. And it was so awful, but so great at the same time. And I would not be sitting here, you know, on this podcast if I had not done the work because. And I wouldn’t be in a happy, healthy relationship right now if I had not done the work. But I was like, d*** it. I was like, I’m gonna figure this thing out. and I, I learned so much about, like, there was like, this common thread I figured out, you know, in all my relationships. I was like, oh, that’s why I get all, pissy about this. And I, you know, I, you know, all the limiting beliefs were just like, boo, boo, Mike. Oh, I got it. Like, it’s like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Tara Kerwin: That inside is awesome.

E.J. Kerwin: yeah, I mean, well, suffering shackles us. It shot. Suffering takes options away, and it keeps us constricted. And, and you can even see it with you is like, you have, like, this freedom and, the way you express yourself it’s, it’s not, it’s not limited. Right. And you can’t do that if you haven’t taken on your suffering. You know, and the thing about is you understand your suffering, you move through it, you find new systems that you create intentionally and then all of a sudden like you’re like God, God dang, I can move. You know, I can. Or I can just. Yeah, I, I can I have freedom. You know, that’s. And that’s what we want for individuals, that’s what we want for couples is we want them to feel free to free in their body, free in their minds, free in their hearts. I mean, and then wonderful things happen in their lives.

Wendy Valentine: I even think too, I mean pro therapy. Love, love, love. And even when something isn’t like really bad or really wrong, I’m still like, still do the work. Like you’re gonna find more things about yourself and you’re gonna evolve into a better woman, a better man. Have ah, better relationships. Like it’s, it’s always worth it, always.

Tara Kerwin: Where else can you have like an hour a week with someone who has no skin in the game and they just accept you unconditionally positive regard. It feels so good. It feels so good.

Wendy Valentine: I know.

E.J. Kerwin: And the more they know you, the more they’re able to provide you insights that you just might not see, you know, or not not be able to connect on your own. So yeah, it’s a powerful relationship that. Between a therapist and a client or a coach and a client.

Wendy Valentine: I love it.

Tara EJ created a program to help couples deal with infidelity

Tell me more about the program. I know you touched on it a little bit and that’s what’s cool because even if you’re not in Arizona and Tucson or in Phoenix, you can still do your program.

Tara Kerwin: Yeah, that. So it’s a, the method we created. It’s a very structured approach but because every couple is different, it’s kind of. Some couples can work through it in four or six months, some couples it’s a couple years. It’s because if there’s infidelity and stuff, that’s the in office therapeutic model we created. I believe once the pandemic hit and we were just, just we were like on a year wait list when it was crazy. We were like, we have to do something at home. And so. But we also know like for the at home version, for couples in crisis, it won’t work. It could be very destabilizing which. We’re actually going to start offering coaching sessions this year globally now that we can so that’s awesome. But what we did is we tried to create this. It’s like 22 lessons at home based on the model at our Tucson counseling center where it’s been very successful. And if the couple feels like, wow, we, we can do this. It is. They explore their attachment history, their relationship timeline. There’s a communication series, intimacy series, old story, new story, which is my favorite, like, how were we thinking, feeling behaving before we started this? You know, they create their own goals, mid goal check in and then this new story where they’re going to continue to cultivate this with their weekly check ins and stuff. But it is just like a ton of coping skills, interventions, questions to ask each other, moments, of being able to build compassion. And so we tried to do what we could at an at home version with couples, not I love it. And we’ve had awesome responses globally from it. So it’s been really awesome. We feel really proud of, you know.

E.J. Kerwin: I mean, couples don’t know. Sorry.

Wendy Valentine: Oh, no, you go first.

E.J. Kerwin: I was gonna say couples don’t know how to talk about these things. And what it does is it’s, it’s a week by week. Here’s a structured way, here’s eight questions, here’s an exercise, here’s a fun thing to do, you know, because you and your partner are the sort of clay and you just need, you need some help in sort of shaping it and putting it together and, and, and taking those rough edges off. And so the program just gives the the, the model. Sorry, Tara. She likes model better than program. the model just gives, gives, gives a structure for a couple to have really positive experiences and learn more about each other.

Tara Kerwin: Yeah, we try to put in fun things, like six words. If you finish your at home, what would it feel like and look like and put it up in the kitchen where every day you’re looking at like more playful, more flirty, whatever those six words are. So combination of like some difficult conversations because that has to happen.

E.J. Kerwin: Yeah.

Tara Kerwin: but also some really fun things too. So yeah, I want to do it.

Wendy Valentine: I’m like, I want to do it. You know, I was just thinking it’s like, like for some people that aren’t as gung ho about going to therapy as I am, it’s a great way to be able to, to do the work without like, oh, we gotta go talk to a therapist. Like, and you’re doing it at home, it’s comfortable and you’re with each other and you can pause the video and discuss or whatever.

Tara Kerwin: You know, I, love that. And. And the reason why, because we’re hearing right. Really great feedback. But also, there are some couples that, like, gosh, this would be so great if, like, Taryn EJ offered some, like, coaching through it because they’ll get stuck in a couple of them. And that’s where we were. Like, absolutely, we can do. I mean, it hasn’t been developed yet, but it’s starting in the next few months. And so we. We hear back from the community, and, like, we can make that happen. Right? So it’s in the work. So there. There will be again. But if. I mean, like, you, I’m a fan of therapy. I’m a fan of a great couples counselor. Like, have that person that is creating that safety for you, then you get to have those skills and bring them outside of the therapy session. That’s okay, too. There is nothing wrong with you if you have to go to couples therapy. Nothing.

Wendy Valentine: Nothing wrong. Do you know it, too? I saw the price on your website, and I literally, in my mind, I was like, like, that is insanely affordable. And on your bullet point, it literally says insanely.

E.J. Kerwin: Subliminal messaging.

Tara Kerwin: Does it really? Yeah, it does. Like that.

Wendy Valentine: I was like, it’s true. Something like this. Some.

Tara Kerwin: Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: Some phrase like that.

Tara Kerwin: My whole thing is like, so many couples don’t have the luxury of affording.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Tara Kerwin: Couples therapy. And I wanted to make it. Trust me. We’ve had people like, you guys need to. And I’m like, absolutely not. Like, I want people to be able to have access to this. And that is important to me because I know there’s other therapists in the community. Not the community, but globally, that have programs, and they’re like, thirteen hundred dollars. Sixteen hundred dollars. I’m like, no, I just, We offered it free over, Covid. People were like, what are you doing? I’m like, I just. This is what I want to do. I want to give back.

Wendy Valentine: Like, I love it.

EJ’s website focuses on relationship renovation. And by doing that, right

And I did happen to notice on, on EJ’s bio on the website, it said something about. I think it’s the very last line. It said something about making the world a better place. Like, that’s your. Your main purpose. And by doing that, right? Like, by creating better relationships, you are making the world a better place. It’s.

E.J. Kerwin: It’s like the first building block of our community. You know, there’s. There’s couples, there’s families, there’s businesses, there’s communities. It’s just. It’s a great intervention point of creating connection that Then is going to reverberate out.

Wendy Valentine: Thank you so much. You guys are awesome.

E.J. Kerwin: Thank you.

Tara Kerwin: So are you. Yeah.

E.J. Kerwin: You’re really fun.

Wendy Valentine: Thank you. Thank you all. When I’m back in Arizona, in Felicia in the rv.

E.J. Kerwin: Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: Desert. It’s so pretty down there. I never make it down to Tucson, though. I always end up like, what is it? Casa Grande. I, usually go down that way.

Tara Kerwin: 45 more minutes. Casa Grande. You’ve got this. We could do an in person interview.

E.J. Kerwin: We’re like a UNESCO, like, culinary city of significance now.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

E.J. Kerwin: Great food. Great food here.

Wendy Valentine: Arizona is amazing. At least I’ll be there. Let’s see. I’ll be there in March and April before the summer hits.

E.J. Kerwin: That’s a good idea.

Tara Kerwin: Perfect.

E.J. Kerwin: Good idea. We’ll take you out.

Wendy Valentine: Oh, yeah.

E.J. Kerwin: I’m gonna come see you for some baria. we’re, We’re.

Tara Kerwin: You didn’t rule your R’s.

Wendy Valentine: And I’m still learning Portuguese over here. Oh, my dad. so tell us where we can find you.

E.J. Kerwin: I mean, the easiest thing to do is relationshiprenovation.com. everything’s there. Our. If you’re local, our service is there. You can get to our online program through that website. The, other thing is, you know, our podcast and YouTube channel just. And. And again, same thing. Relationship renovation. Check it out. We’re putting out really wonderful. Like you interviewing amazing people. talking about just how to cultivate a really loving, caring relationship with your partner.

Wendy Valentine: Thank you. I’m glad you guys were the guinea pigs for all of this. And you were the. You were the guinea pig to make it. Yes. Good little guinea pigs.

Tara Kerwin: Thank you so much, guys. Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: Everyone have a great day.

E.J. Kerwin: All right, bye.