Kelly McMasters shares her perspective on embracing change and finding new beginnings

Kelly McMasters: Hello, everyone.

Wendy Valentine: Welcome back to another episode of the Midlife Makeover show. Today we have an incredible guest who brings a fresh perspective on embracing change and finding new beginnings. Meet Kelly McMasters, a best selling author, professor, and former bookshop owner in New York. Kelly’s impressive works include the leaving season, welcome to Shirley, a memoir of an Atomic Town, which, by the way, was one of Oprah’s top five summer memoirs. Thank you very much. And wanting women writing about desire. That’s got to be so good. Today, Kelly will share her insights on the power of looking at leaving as a new beginning. I totally agree. Whether it’s leaving a job, a relationship, or even a town, she believes that every ending can be the start of something beautiful. Get ready for a thoughtful and inspiring conversation that will encourage you to see new opportunities where you might have only seen loss.

Kelly McMasters talks about leaving season and women writing about desire

Let’s give a warm welcome to Kelly McMasters.

Kelly McMasters: Thank you so much, Wendy. That’s so nice.

Wendy Valentine: I always imagine, like, if someone’s watching the video on YouTube, I’m just sitting here, like, we’ll just dance around. Well, welcome. It’s so nice to have you here.

Kelly McMasters: Oh, thank you, Wendy. I’m, really excited to be here.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. And I’m excited about, well, both of those books. the leaving season, and then. What was the other one? The women. The women. Ah. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What’s it called? Yeah, there it is. Women writing about desire. Which one do you talk about first?

Kelly McMasters: I’m up for either. I think they’re so intermingled. we can really do either.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, I was gonna say they really are. Cause, with desire sometimes turns into leaving.

Kelly McMasters: I think sometimes that is what is required. You have to understand that there is something you want, and, yeah, oftentimes you need to leave to get it.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

This book traces multiple different types of leaving. So the main spine of the book is leaving a marriage

So tell us a little bit about your story of leaving.

Kelly McMasters: Yes, sure. So this book traces, like you said, multiple different types of leaving. So the main spine of the book is leaving a marriage. And that is. So we go through sort of the, you know, every divorce story starts as a love story, and there was plenty of love there. and then together, we wind up leaving the city, moving to the country. And essentially, it started with this idea of living what I thought was my perfect life. So I was in. I had left Manhattan, living in rural Pennsylvania on ten acres, had two little kids, and, you know, running around in diapers in the field. I owned a bookshop, a small independent bookshop, and everything seemed perfect. And yet, I was just, this incredible sadness that could not be resolved with no matter how much work or exterior things I tried to fill it with, because my marriage was falling apart. And m so the heartbreak of the book, the reason that, I sort of wanted to explore it in the written form, is in order to fix that. In order, once I saw that and I couldn’t unsee it, I needed to dismantle and leave all of these other things that I loved so much. I loved my house. I loved my bookshop. I loved the idea of children running in the wild, you know, in the woods. and I needed to leave all of that in order to. In the hopes of a better new beginning. And there’s no guarantee. It’s very scary, but that is the heart of the book.

Wendy Valentine: There’s this quote, which kind of helped me during my time of, like, you know, midlife meltdown, if you will. and I don’t know who said this quote. Maybe it was me. Maybe I made it up. but a comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing ever grows there. And it’s so funny because I sat when I was in my sunroom in Virginia, in Williamsburg, Virginia, and I was sitting there, and I was looking out the lake. And it’s so silly, but sometimes simplest metaphors or simplest teachings can be the most profound. Like, can literally, like, make you move, right? And I was sitting there, and on the corner of my desk was this little potted plant, and I had it for a couple of years, right? And in the corner was the same type of plant in a larger pot that also I had had for a few years, but it was much larger, obviously. And it made me think, like, wait a second. I need to repot myself, if you will. I need to get into a larger pot in order for me to grow, because I was keeping myself small inside this little bitty pot, if that makes sense. And so you almost as comfortable. As amazing as my surroundings were, my life, in a lot of ways, it was like I had to force myself to go into a larger pot.

Kelly McMasters: yeah, right. There’s a difference between surviving.

Wendy Valentine: Yes.

Kelly McMasters: Right?

Wendy Valentine: Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. And we can always. I think. I don’t know about you, but, like, even if things are okay in the relationship, at home, career, where you live, everything, you could rationalize it and be like, this isn’t that bad. Like, I shouldn’t be such a brat. I should just be, you know, content with that. But you. But no, you have to be like, am I truly, truly happy? Like, if you. I always feel like if you’re thinking to yourself. Is there more then there’s more?

Kelly McMasters: M absolutely.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Kelly McMasters: Yeah. All of those different pockets, right? You’ve got a. Your love relationship. You’ve got your relationship with yourself. You’re feeding your creativity. You’ve got your family, right? All of those things, career, all of them can’t be, operating at the top level all the time. Right? So. Oh, but you’re. You should always be moving forward and pitching off and making sure each pot is being watered, right?

Wendy Valentine: Yes, exactly. Yeah. And I think there’s a difference between. And this is one thing that I realized, there’s a difference between contentment and complacency. And I definitely become very complacent where, like, I was like, no, again, like, no, you should stay. You’re fine. You’re fine. Like, you’re quipping. Such a brat. You know, I would tell myself, and then I was like, I am not evolving at all as a woman, you know? So what was the breaking point for you? What was that point where you’re, like, gots to go?

Kelly McMasters: So I think I, For me, that it was actually an external thing that was required from another woman.

Kelly McMasters: Because it hadn’t been good in a long time, and I knew that, but I wasn’t ready to accept it. Say it out loud.

Kelly McMasters: Say it in meaning to myself, even much less other people. But other people were seeing it. And one afternoon, I was closing up the bookshop, and a friend came in, and she said, can I talk to you for a minute? And this happened all the time in a small bookshop. Right. It’s sort of like church for book people.

Wendy Valentine: Right?

Kelly McMasters: Confessions and, these really intense chats. And it’s just a place, you know, it was a small shop, and people would come and talk all the time. And so I was like, okay, I have to get home to get dinner on the table, but I’ll give her a minute.

San Diego says she was encouraged to leave marriage by a trusted friend

she needs something, right. What I didn’t understand is she was coming to talk to me, and she had seen something earlier in the week that just stuck with her and between my husband and myself at the time. And she came, and she just said, you know, you can leave. Right.

Kelly McMasters: And at first, I didn’t really know what she meant, and then. Then I understood, and I didn’t actually know that.

Wendy Valentine: Isn’t that interesting? Yeah. Why did you not know that?

Kelly McMasters: I think at that point, I had bought in to, the idea of, not just the sort of political institution of marriage. Right. That’s separate. I do agree that that is a strong, and terrifying force in our culture. however, it was more personal. Right. Leaving. I had equated that with failing. The fear of breaking up a family, of destroying something that was intact. And once she opened that door and I could kind of peek through and see what might be on the other side. Right. It was too scary even to look for a, very long period. Once I looked and I realized, actually, it’s definitely different. And there are some scary things, but, wow, there’s a lot of beauty and freedom and possibility over there. I know what it’s like on this side. I know what it’s like if I stay in this room, I might not know, but looking through that door suddenly was so. It was the first time I’d felt hope in a long time and I’d really missed that. and so it was that sort of just playing with feeling. Right. the manifestation of what it would feel like to be on the other side is then what made it possible for me to. It took a long time. Right. Orchestrating financially, job wise, everything.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Kelly McMasters: That was the moment where I thought, okay, this. I think this is the direction I want to move in.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. Isn’t it interesting that we almost forget as we get older to dream and to have desires? It’s almost like, okay, you’re not allowed to do that anymore. Sorry. Like, your dreaming days are over. You’re not allowed to leap into more exciting things in life.

Kelly McMasters: Why?

Wendy Valentine: Like, and I don’t know, like, I do. Like, I can totally relate to everything you were saying. And I can remember thinking, like, oh, my gosh, I’m going to upset the apple cart here. Like, I’m going to be the big, bad apple sour apple of the whole mix and have to make the announcement to everyone. And then there’s always the why. And the one thing I learned, I was like, why does it matter? And to not have to feel. I think as women especially, we like to explain everything because we’re trying to seek the approval of people that are listening. Like, oh, hopefully my parents are going to be upset. Let me explain it in the way that’s going to be good for them. And, of course, it’s not like you’re just going to go, hi, I’m leaving, or getting a divorce. Of course you’ll say a little something, but not to the point where, like, not everyone’s gonna agree, right? Probably most people won’t. But as long as you agree, it’s what you need to do and to trust that, yes, there is light at the end of the tunnel. And it’s so worth going through the darkness to get there. S***.

Kelly McMasters: It is. And it reminds me when I was working on this book before it came out, and people, I would say, you know, it’s about my divorce. And people would say, oh, my goodness, your children are going to read that. What are. And as if I hadn’t thought about that.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Kelly McMasters: I think that’s the same thing. It’s trusting women, right?

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Kelly McMasters: That you’re leaving. There’s a reason. You’ve done the math.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, exactly. Like, I’ve kind of calculated this quite a few times in my head, you know? And you know what? I. This was so interesting. I was. This was back in San Diego. I was doing a heal your life workshop or whatever. Louise hay. And this lady. Isn’t that amazing, though? Like, sometimes just one again, like one little moment of someone saying something to you is like, that was like, there you go. That was. It was almost like you. We need these permission slips. Or like, yes. Oh, you could do it, right? But, she had said we were like, broken out into teams or whatever. We were doing some type of little exercise. And she goes, the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do was leave a good man. M. And this was.

The healing takes place before you leave, during the leave, after the leave

Right. This was when I was going back and forth in my head, should I stay or should I go now? And I remember thinking, I was like, d***. She like, yes, that’s exactly what it is. Because my ex, great man, great father. But, it’s just wendy had to go. It was just not for me. It was good at the time, 20 years prior, but no, it had. I had to move on in so many different ways. Right. But, yeah, you have to come. And I think, too, like, you may not have to be completely at peace with yourself right before you leave. It doesn’t have to feel a thousand percent, but you’ll get there. Like, sometimes like that. Healing. The healing takes place before you leave, during the leave, after the leave, much after the leave. Right.

How have you changed since you’ve left, since your divorce

How different. How have you changed since you’ve left, since your. Since your divorce? How different of a woman are you now?

Kelly McMasters: I mean, I think a lot of this book is actually about returning. Having lost my way and returning back to something. I think probably the most fundamental change was believing. I mean, to my core that I didn’t like being a mother. I was not good at being a mother. I had a really rough first few years. I loved my kids, but I thought I was not good in that space. It took leaving and becoming a solo parent to really fall in love with the possibility of being a mom and on my terms. Right? Yeah. And now it’s the greatest joy of my life. Now, that’s not going to be the same story for everybody, but for me, it was being able to. I was, attributing a lot of insecurity, unhappiness to that motherhood aspect, of my life. but once everything else shifted, and that creativity part, the strength, the independence returned, and I could funnel that into the motherhood job, all m of a sudden, it felt, it was reflexive. I was gaining strength. And, the love beam that would just come from the kids, I could accept it suddenly in a way that I couldn’t before. And that, I think, was probably trusting myself. Just the most fundamental, in the most fundamental way, was the biggest change. And that I think even though this is a divorce story, really, it’s a love story about falling in love with myself and who I was at that point in my life.

Wendy Valentine: Yep. I always say that I got a divorce to marry myself. Being married to myself, great. But, you know, I mean, I had been with someone since I was 15 years old. I was always in a freaking relationship. And I, mean, one of the reasons I didn’t want to divorce this last time is because I had been divorced before. So I literally was like, I can’t do it again. That’s just like, horrible. Like, get a second divorce. And then I even thought, who’s gonna want me? How would I be in a nut? You know, it’s like all the bullshit lies you start to tell yourself and then like, oh, I’ll never date. No one will want me because I’d been divorced twice. And then I thought about it. I was like, I was, I was watching whatever, some movie or something. Maybe it was like Elizabeth Taylor. And I thought, s, she’d been married six times. Married twice. Am I that bad? You know, like, if she could do it, well, she’s got more. She had more, has had, whatever, more money than I do. But maybe that’s the reason. But I mean, it’s, it’s crazy. The lies that we will tell ourself to prevent us from moving forward and moving on and evolving and growing and, I mean, what, what is, Marianne Williams Williamson? Her quote, our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It’s our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. And I’ll admit I was scared of my light by me staying in my marriage and staying small and staying in that little bitty potted plant. I was like, I’m going to stay here because this is safer. Because then if I really go out there into the light, s, I got to basically do what I’m doing now, you know? And that could be scary.

What were some of your greatest fears in leaving? I think immediately,

What were some of your greatest fears in leaving?

Kelly McMasters: I think immediately, the fears of being able to provide for my kids. being able. A lot of it. I think you’re right. The questions that women ask are so different than the questions that men ask.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, I know.

Kelly McMasters: what will it mean? what will people think of me? Right. For a long period, I didn’t tell anybody I went through two different jobs and where I didn’t tell anyone what my actual situation was, because I didn’t want them to. Now I’m a professor. I was on the tenure track. I didn’t want them to think I was a bad bet. I didn’t want to think I was messy. Oh, she’s in the middle of a divorce. That’s messy. Even announcing yourself as a mother is. You’re not going to be focused on your work. That’s what they believe. Anyone who’s a mom knows that if you need somebody to get a job done, find a single parent, and you will.

Wendy Valentine: Exactly. I know. We could tackle it.

Kelly McMasters: Yeah. And that’s the beautiful thing. You talked about permission slips before. I mean, that’s what your whole show is. That’s what your upcoming book is, right?

Wendy Valentine: I. Yep.

Kelly McMasters: We need to continually give each other those permission slips. Not just to say, you can do this next thing, but also you can just be right. You can inhabit your truth and share that. And that’s enough. And I think that’s the, you know, the idea that for me, what was powerful was being able to write this down.

Kelly McMasters: Live with it, think about it, revise it, have the angry draft, have the pity draft, have all of the different drafts, and then come back to it. We were talking before about neutrality. Come back from a powerful place, be able to write into it without condemnation, without revenge. I am the center of this. This is about me figuring stuff out of. And then I get to put this on the shelf.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, right.

Kelly McMasters: And I get to write my story and felt the most powerful.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, exactly. I mean, that book is. Yes, it’s your past, and it’s also your present and also your future. Because within that book, and I know you know this, but you have so much wisdom that you gained from all that, from the experiences. I mean, I do. Like, it sounds crazy. Like, I think I posted a reel about this, like, a while back about loving divorce and debt and death and all of the s*** that we get hit with in life. Like, if you learn to love it, if you learn to embrace it, it will give you so many gifts, but you just. It’s crazy how. How you will evolve as a person if you can just learn to go, okay, here it is in front of me, let me deal with it, and then I’m going to move on.

Kelly McMasters: Yeah. And not to. I mean, I. Not that I don’t do this. I work on this every day. To not come from a place of fear.

Wendy Valentine: Yes.

Kelly McMasters: Once you’ve gone through difficult things like that, you realize, okay, maybe that’s not the worst thing, but I’ve been through something like this. Survived. and then when you have these two small people attached to you, suddenly you become a lot stronger and you are willing to go to battle in ways that, for me, that I wasn’t willing to do just for myself. But now with these two small people watching me, I suddenly had an audience that I was teaching, whether I meant to or not, but understanding that every day when I didn’t stand up for myself, when I didn’t follow my joy or my passion, or my happiness, when I didn’t choose me.

Kelly McMasters: I was teaching them, yes, stay small, too.

Wendy Valentine: Yep. I totally agree. And I think about, there was a stat that I saw the other days, I think over the age of 40 that 60% of marriages are ending in divorce. Now, that’s actually like an official number. But how many more are staying because they’re because of finances or the children? Right, but going back to what you were saying, though, I’ve always said that when you stay in an unhappy marriage because of the children, you’re showing, you were teaching your children to stay in unhappy relationships and you’re showing them, no, you are a woman that just stays, even if you’re not happy with something. But if you get out of the relationship and you move on, you can show your children, this is what you do, this is how you handle it. Right. Like, this is how you can conquer your life. This is how you can reinvent yourself. I mean, that is the most valuable lesson that you can teach your children to take charge of your life.

Kelly McMasters: Yeah. And that goes for, you know, whether you have regardless, of the gender of your kids. Right. Because we are. For those of us who have little boys. Right. They are also learning how to grow up and be men and in relationships and things like, I mean, that’s. That’s a huge, I don’t want to say weight on my shoulder, because that feels negative, but what a gift that I get to participate in growing them, growing that next. That next.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, I know.

Kelly McMasters: And to do that with joy and. Right. And the attachment that, the healthy attachment that you hope is what you can hand off. I think that one of the biggest lessons, when my co editor, Margot Kahn and I were putting together the wanting book, right. We had an idea of some of the women that we wanted to write for us. And we sent out a few emails, and so many women wrote back and said, yes, I would love to write about wanting desire. This sounds amazing.

Carter: I think a lot of us lose connection to what we want

I’ll get right back to you. And then they sat with it and thought about it and realized, I don’t even know what I want. we lose connection to that really important, fundamental question so that we’re just existing in the air. We’re not going in a direction. I also. I think there was one really important moment, where I was, pretty new in motherhood, and I was staying overnight to teach a class at Columbia. And I was staying in a friend’s apartment, by myself. And it was the first time I’d been alone in a really long time. I had to feed myself. Right. And I just remember walking around the grocery store. I didn’t even know what I was hungry for.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Kelly McMasters: And so on, like, a non metaphorical way, like that kind of hunger, that kind of base hunger. What do I want to eat right now? that question I wasn’t able to answer, much less what am I hungry for? Move towards what’s driving me. and I think the other interesting lesson in that book, a lot of the women wrote first drafts, and they wrote about, not really what they wanted, but why they couldn’t get what they wanted. M and this book, we really, really wanted to focus on the want, right? The physical desire, like that juicy, painful wanting stage of what it feels like, whether it’s another person, whether it’s food, whatever it is, to experience, because that leaving. Right. That needs to be preceded by wanting something different. And want, in our culture, especially for women, is a dirty word. And so, we’re trained to. Everything’s fine. We’re fine. We don’t need anything, right?

Wendy Valentine: Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I’m good. But what is that? what does everybody else need? Yeah. Right. I don’t want anything. I’m good.

Kelly McMasters: Totally. And, that will get you a.

Wendy Valentine: Tiny plant, right, exactly. yeah.

Kelly McMasters: And that there’s. You lose your life force, and it’s really hard to get back. I think a lot of us lose it. you know, just whether it’s the turnstile of daily life, or something traumatic happening. But I. You know, we lose it, and it’s. If we don’t foster that, it’s gone. Only you can bring it sometimes, too.

Wendy Valentine: We don’t. This just popped my mind that maybe we don’t even give ourselves a chance to want or to desire something, because that means if you want something, you gotta make a freaking move and go.

Kelly McMasters: After it, and you might not get it.

Wendy Valentine: Exactly. So we’re worried about the heartbreak or not being able to do it, right. Not being good enough. So therefore, we stay in that tiny little potted plant. Right. So we almost don’t even give ourselves permission to dream or to want. Because what’s the point? Like, I’m not going to do it anyways. I can’t get that. I’ve got all these restrictions and limiting beliefs and doubts, and it made me think of, Brene Brown. She. It was on. I don’t know if it’s still on there, but it was the call to courage that she did on Netflix, and she was. It’s really, really good. And she was talking about, if you think about it, anytime you’ve done something courageous in your life, you’ve had to get vulnerable. Yep. Ah. You’ve had to, like, you have to get vulnerable with yourself. Even the people around you. You have to be transparent. And you’d be like, here we go. You know? And then you leap. But you have, like I’ve always said, too, like, you can’t. Like, I can’t give you a jar of courage. No, but I can’t give anyone a jar of courage. You fill up your own jar of courage by actually taking courageous steps. And the more that you do it, the better you get at it, the more you’re like, sure, yeah, I can do that. Like, you know, I mean, that’s why I think, like, sometimes, not that I’m, you know, encouraging people to get divorced or anything, but. But when you go through it, when you’re on the other side of it, you can look back and go, that’s right. I did that. Like, in that one movie. I can’t remember coach. Coach Carter. He’s like, that’s right. I tied that. But anyways. But you can be like, pat on the freaking back. I got through it. You know what I mean? Like, not that you’re like, trying to like, you know, oh, four stars on that or something like that. But, you know, a plus on that divorce. But, you know, like. But hey, it’s something you went through that could, could, you could allow it to totally tear you down, break you down, rip your life apart, or you make the choice to, like, I’m going to come out better on the other side of this.

Yes, desire is so vulnerable. Right? To say, I want something

That’s a choice.

Kelly McMasters: Yeah. And it can also be an and, right. You can get torn down and you can still.

Wendy Valentine: And. Yeah, yeah, that’s.

Kelly McMasters: That feels so realistic. And yes, desire is so vulnerable. It is so vulnerable to say, I want something. Right? To move forward towards something, and then to say it out loud.

Wendy Valentine: I know.

Kelly McMasters: because then, right, the possibility of failure becomes public, too. And that,

Wendy Valentine: It’s scary.

Kelly McMasters: Oh, scary.

Wendy Valentine: My stomach hurts right now. Having empathy pains for everyone listening right now. Sorry, but do it anyway.

Kelly McMasters: And I remember a very dear friend of mine was going through a separation and divorce for the past few years. And we would walk together, work together, and, she knew, and I could see that she knew.

Kelly McMasters: But she couldn’t do it yet. And she kept hoping that she wouldn’t have to. Right.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, I agree.

Kelly McMasters: I am not pro divorce, but if you need one, get one. Right.

Wendy Valentine: Exactly. I know.

Kelly McMasters: watching her, I remember we talked about this metaphor that seemed. That really stuck with me. Just the idea that from my view, where I could see her, right, she felt like she was drowning and that she had nothing left. Right. I knew from the outside, I knew that she was actually drowning in like, the shallow end of a pool and that she just stood up. She would be out of the water.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Kelly McMasters: Sometimes it’s so hard to stand up.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Kelly McMasters: And you don’t know that you can do it until you do it. And then you’re like, oh, I’m out.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, exactly. Or like, what’s the saying? Leap in the net will appear. Right. And I’ve always thought about that, quote, leap in the net will appear. I’m m like, well, what’s the net? And you were the net. And it’s having that. It’s having that faith in yourself that you will catch yourself, like, and you will become so much stronger after you do that.

There are several things in life that you leave throughout your lifetime

I just, as you were talking, I was thinking about the title of your book, and it’s perfect because, and I don’t know why I didn’t think of this before leaving. Season. It’s a season. It’s just a frickin season, right? Like summer passes, winter passes. Right? I mean, it’s a season. You get through it.

Kelly McMasters: Yeah. Right. Like everything else and both. I mean, there’s the, the sort of leaving, right. M so much in divorce, seems like there’s a before and after.

Wendy Valentine: Mm.

Kelly McMasters: Yes, of course there actually. however, I know for me, I felt, and I really was stuck in that middle, leaving for so long, whether it’s legally, emotionally, right. All the ways, and I mean, you shared your life with this person. In my case, they are the father of my children. So it will never be over. I will always be in a state of leaving. But it is, right. The season comes and goes. It’s cyclical. and it shifts. It won’t always hurt as much as. Right. And other things will hurt more. Right. Things will add and pile in and fill that pain space. but that too will keep you, if you keep going, you just have to keep going.

Wendy Valentine: And you know, I was just thinking too, the same. I think I might have said this in the introduction, but divorce, what? Or, you know, a marriage, a job, a town, there’s tons of things that we leave throughout our lifetime. And it’s okay if, that, if you have to leave. Like I, when I look back and what I’ve been writing about in the book, it’s crazy, but I think like six years ago, I left all of it. I left the marriage, a business, my career. I left, house. I left a town. I went from Williamsburg, Virginia, to Chicago, Illinois. Like, left friends, family, like talk about throwing myself into one gigantic pot to be, to be replanted in. And I just had to gradually, like, fill the dirt in and start watering myself until I grew into the woman that I am now. I mean, not, I’m not recommending everybody do that, but point is, is that there are several things in life that you leave that you just have to create that courage within yourself and, go for it, right?

Kelly McMasters: And I think nature, I mean, a lot of what I write about is nature based. And if we look at sort of, you know, not to get hokey, but mother nature.

Wendy Valentine: I love Hokie.

Kelly McMasters: Right.

Wendy Valentine: Okay, Hokie is my thing.

Kelly McMasters: Then you won’t mind, right. Looking at, at the natural cycles around us, right, that we are just part of. when, both of my parents were divorced, before they got married. And, when I was thinking about this, my dad, for a period, he loves gardening and things like that. He’s a total gardener. And when I said I’m thinking about leaving. He, would come over and he would show me how to, split, you know, hostas. How to split rhubarb. Right. all of these particular types of plants. And he was showing me, right. Sometimes when you split, you get so much growth afterwards for. And not just one. Right.

Wendy Valentine: Oh, I love that analogy.

Kelly McMasters: It was so helpful. And, ah, he really showed me and reminded me to look around. And it was also good. Even though, I’m not sure that my ex would say this, but it was good for him too.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly McMasters: If we’re. There are two people here, and one doesn’t want to be there. It’s not good.

Wendy Valentine: Oh, no, exactly. That’s kind of how I felt, too. I was like, well, that’s not fair. Right?

Sometimes the struggle is there to teach you something. I don’t know, like, when I was going through all of that

Speaking, of nature, we’ll throw out another nature metaphor here. One of my favorites, is the butterfly. And when the butterfly is busting out of the cocoon, like, if you actually cut the top of a cocoon off and took the balloon. Balloon s. Took the butterfly out, the butterfly would be deformed and it would die. So when you’re in a leaving season, no matter what, you’re leaving. Think of yourself as that butterfly trying to bust out of the cocoon, to fly, to set yourself free. You will struggle like it’s a guarantee. But the struggle is good. The struggle is there to teach you something. And I think. I don’t know, like, for me, when I was going through all of that, my life, I was like, you know what? I’m gonna do my best to be super mindful as I go through all this s. And I, like, I was trying to just pay attention to what was going on outside of me, within me. How, Like, how can I learn from this? How could. How can I grow from this? Like, all of that, like, you and even the really, really rough parts, I was like, I’m gonna pay attention to this. I’m gonna. I’m not gonna just cry. I’m like, cry like a freaking baby. Like, I’m really going balls out with the grief, you know? But it’s. It taught me so much. Yeah. And I don’t think. Yeah. I think if I’d taken a different route with that, I I would not be where I’m at. I I probably. I don’t even know if I’d be here, honestly. Like, so it’s. It’s.

It’s choice, though. Choose to fly, to be free, to set yourself free

It’s choice, though. And you have to choose a. Choose to fly, to be free, to set yourself free.

Kelly McMasters: And you’re right. You have to. That, Butterfly has to go through that, like, weird, soupy, messy period in order to transform. Otherwise he’s just going to be a worm his whole life.

Wendy Valentine: Right. Yeah. Just eating everything. Eating your dad’s garden. Like, you’re like nom nom.

Kelly McMasters: Yeah. And. Right. That’s safe. That. That’s a perfectly fine life.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. Exactly.

Kelly McMasters: They don’t know. They could be a butterfly.

Wendy Valentine: Exactly. Yeah. And everyone out there can be a butterfly. You just have to get. We’re giving you a permission slip today. Yes, you can fly.

What’s your biggest desire right now

So, if you don’t mind sharing, what are your. What’s your biggest desire right now? What are you wanting right now in your life?

Kelly McMasters: Okay. I, just had this incredible experience, where I was able to go to a writing residency. And basically for two weeks, it was just me. Somebody fed me, they gave me a room that they changed the linens.

Wendy Valentine: Somebody,

Kelly McMasters: Took, care. Like, I had a studio that I could. That I just had a giant cork board and I could put all of my projects up. And nobody told me I had to be anywhere. The only thing I had to do, the only responsibility, was show up and be fed.

Wendy Valentine: Nice. I like it.

Kelly McMasters: I mean, it’s, incredible. The first few days were so painful because I didn’t have children or a partner or a job. Like, I just. It was just me. And it hasn’t been like that for quite a while. Even though I wrote this whole book and, you know, worked on that. It’s so unusual to really have that space of just being alone with yourself and figuring out, okay, what do I want? M I did, you know, once I sort of relaxed into it, and got started getting into that workspace of the flow, it’s such hard work, but it feeds me so much. And I think for me, it’s that reminder that. And then once I came home all, you know, it’s like, oh, my son’s birthday and the job, all this stuff, which I love, all of that. And it’s really hard, though, being, compartmentalized and dividing. So I think it was just a really good reminder to every morning, instead of looking at my phone, right, start the day intentionally start, it reading, start it stretching, get in tune with your body, that kind of thing. Just so you can answer that question. It’s going to change every day what I want. and some days I want to sleep in and not do anything. and not that I really have that option, but I think. I think just asking, just being reminded to ask that question every day. What do I want?

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Kelly McMasters: Is, And being able to announce that I want, period.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Kelly McMasters: That’s okay. I do. I want things. I want things I don’t have.

Wendy Valentine: I want.

Kelly McMasters: And. And to be open in the world, because it is vulnerable. Once people know what you want, that can be a power thing. But to just be a woman in the world who wants, I think, is fundamental. I want change. I want beauty. I want, work. I want sex. I want love. All of the things.

Kelly McMasters: And I think that’s almost the most revolutionary part that you can play.

Your book about leaving is coming out, and you’re excited

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. And I was just thinking, too, you kind of touched on this a little bit earlier, but wanting is also. That’s part of self care. That’s part of saying I care that much about myself, that I can state what I want and what I need in life.

Kelly McMasters: Right?

Wendy Valentine: And women like weird, awful at, taking care of ourselves. Right. We’re always taking care of everybody else.

Kelly McMasters: Right. And with that goes what you don’t want.

Wendy Valentine: Yes. Oh, yeah. I’m glad you said that, because I think for me, that was. I had to figure out what I did not want in my life first. And I had to kind of declutter m all of that stuff before I could really make room for the stuff I wanted.

Kelly McMasters: I mean, you made. You made amazing room.

Wendy Valentine: I had a bulldozer. I was, like, raw, out of my way. And sometimes I feel like sometimes you have. Sometimes you have to do that. Sometimes you have to deconstruct your old life in order to construct a new life. And that’s okay. And it takes time, but the reward is so worth it.

Kelly McMasters: No, it absolutely is. And, yeah, it’s, terrifying to say I want, but otherwise, you’re just going to be that little worm hanging out.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, I know. Eating leaves. Yeah. Well, and I’m going to state my want, because I feel like it’s more powerful if you put it out there in the universe. Right. Help it to grow. But I. This is my first book coming out, and I’m so freaking nervous, and I’m excited, but I would just love for this book to be a huge hit. Not for me. I know this sounds corny, and I’m, This is not bullshit. I do want this for everyone, because, like, everything that I’ve talked about and the things that I did, I’m like, oh, my gosh, if I can do it, you can do it. And I want. I hear it all the time from women that are just like, I’ll stay here I’m just. I don’t. I’m like, no, no, no. You can do so many amazing things with, with your life. Like, it’s just. And so I don’t know, I. I want this book to be a huge success because I know it can change so many lives.

Kelly McMasters: That’s the.

Wendy Valentine: That’s m my one.

Kelly McMasters: That’s honestly been also the definition of success. Right? Like the. When I get a letter from somebody who read the book and it. That’s the best thing I can hope for. I have this, the leaving season postcard project that I do through my substack where people send me postcards.

Wendy Valentine: Oh, yes, I saw that. That’s so cool.

Kelly McMasters: And for as many years as I’ve worked on this project, and I think I know so much about leaving. Right. just reading other women’s. Other people’s experiences about leaving. I have so much to learn. And, that community aspect, what you’re talking about, what will make your book a success, is if other people connect to it.

Wendy Valentine: Yes.

Kelly McMasters: And it’s a circle. Right. So that I think, makes everyone more powerful.

Kelly McMasters: That’s, I think ultimately what I want to.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. And I think that’s what’s nice with books and sharing stories on podcasts is that you feel like you’re not alone. Like, oh, s***, I feel that way too. Or, you know, like. And again, like, back to the permission slips. It’s like, okay, great. She said I can do it. Of course you can do it. Right?

Kelly McMasters: That’s true. We just need that reminder.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. This has been great. I love stuff like this.

Kelly McMasters: Yes. So much fun. Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: So much better than talking about menopause, you know? I mean, the menopause. If we could just have a leaving season with menopause.

Kelly McMasters: And maybe just rename it. So men is not the.

Wendy Valentine: I know, right? Yes. Have you noticed all of it starts with men? Menstrual cycle, menstrual cramps, menopause. That’s too funny. I know.

Both books wanting and the leaving season are everywhere online

Back.

Kelly McMasters: Let’s take it back. Yeah. Right.

Wendy Valentine: so where can we find you? How do we buy your books?

Kelly McMasters: Sure. both books wanting and the leaving season are everywhere online. So bookshop.org, you know, the scary monoliths, Barnes and Noble, Amazon, all of that, as well as your local independent bookshop. As a former independent bookshop owner, I. If you have one near you, go there and you can order anything you need there too. The library. I also love my library. You can always get books there. and then, yeah, find me on substack. I have a fairly new newsletter there. It’s called the magpie because I, love collecting things. And so that is where you can find the postcard project, and you can just find all of this information and more at my website, which is simply my name, kellymcmasters.com dot.

Wendy Valentine: Nice. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, your website’s great. and like I told you earlier, your book covers are amazing. It’s like works of art. Love it. Thanks so much.

Kelly McMasters: Thank you and good luck. I can’t wait to pre order your book in February.

Wendy Valentine: Thank you, everyone. Have a great day.

Kelly McMasters: Bye.