Minnesota tax preparer Steve Hoffman shares insights on practicing for retirement

Wendy Valentine: M hey, everyone. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Midlife Makeover show. Today we’ve got an extraordinary guest joining us, Steve Hoffman. Steve is not just a Minnesota tax preparer, but also an award winning food writer whose work has graced the pages of food and Wine, the Washington Post, and the Minneapolis Star Tribune. I was just thinking left brain and right brain guy. He’s even won the prestigious James Beard MFK M. Fisher distinguished writing award. I hope I got all of that right, but it sounds really impressive. Plus, he’s got a brand new book called a season for that, a memoir about his family’s adventures in a charming winemaking village in southern France. Take me with you. Steve’s here to share some unique insights on practicing for retirement and the importance of thinking in decades. He believes that retirement is something you need to get good at, just like any other aspect of life. I agree. And he’s got some fantastic tips on how to start something now that you’ll be amazing at in ten years. Stop, grab a cup of coffee, get comfy, and let’s dive into this fascinating conversation with Steve Hoffman.

Wendy: Which do you enjoy more as a writer: writing or tax preparation

Dun, dun, dun.

Steve Hoffman: Thank you, wendy.

Wendy Valentine: And I must say, everyone, like, this is so cool, because, let’s see, it would have been 27 episodes ago. Steve’s wife was also on the show, Mary Jo Hoffman. She is the author of the book still. And look at you guys. Oh, my God. You’re killing. You’re killing it at midlife.

Steve Hoffman: Well, you had that. You had the good one first. That was a good judgment on your part. You had a smart one first.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. And that’s what’s so interesting. M I was saying the intro, you’re like, left brain and right brain. You’ve got the creative side going. You’ve got the.

Steve Hoffman: Well, same with Maryland Joe, you know, a former rocket scientist, now artist, photographer. Yeah, yeah. Although it’s. It is interesting, you know, the, my. You know, my. What should be my right brain writer. half of me, I m really got into language at first, very much because I was into grammar. That was sort of my first love. Like, that was my. That was my. My gateway drug into language and books and literature was. Was grammar. And that is very linear. And left brain, right. It’s very memorized rule and apply them, in the correct situations, which is quite similar, in fact, to tax preparation. So people sometimes go, okay, wait a minute. Writing tax preparation, how does that work? But really, there is a link, which is I’m good at memorizing, like, lots of rules, and then good at applying them. And that’s what both grammar and, you know, it’s. In one case it’s the english language, and in the other it’s the IR’s tax code. But to some extent, there is actually a link between the two.

Wendy Valentine: Which do you enjoy more?

Steve Hoffman: Oh, that’s hard. You know, the rewards of writing are better, are bigger and richer. and so if I had to pick one to do the rest of my life, I would for sure pick writing. But I think a lot of people think of tax preparation because it’s such a concentrated season. It’s long hours. It’s sort of insanity. But honestly, compared to writing, compared to the sort of dredging up your soul every single day and being present and engaged and I thinking hard and feeling hard and all of that every single day, at some point, tax preparation is easier. Like, if I. If I, you know, if I have a day where I have to get some hard, good writing done versus I’ve got a day of seven tax appointments, I wake up feeling like my tax appointment day will be an easier day, if that makes sense.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, I can totally relate to that. So yesterday I was supposed to do some writing, and then I just wasn’t feeling it. After, like, 45 minutes, I was like, you know, maybe it’s an admin day.

Steve Hoffman: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Wendy Valentine: But, yeah, I can totally relate to all that because it is more like you’re just. You’re. I mean, obviously you’re using your brain for both. For both, sure. But yes, like, in the writing piece of it, you really are having to engage your heart and your soul, and that can be tough and just tiring.

Steve Hoffman: Right?

Wendy Valentine: Yes. Yes. You almost, like, need a nap.

Steve Hoffman: You know, it takes more sleep. I mean, literally. I was just going to say that, like. Like, you know, people ask me what’s, you know, what have you learned the most? Or what’s been the sort of most important tool as a writer? And honestly, it’s been taking sleep seriously. That’s been my number one, because that sitting there for 4 hours and having to be completely present and non distracted and focused and, you know, letting inputs come in and trying to translate them, that is very tiring work, and you need to. Your brain needs to be ready and at its peak. And the only way I found it to do that consistently is to get enough sleep.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, exactly.

Steve Hoffman: Super boring. But it’s so true.

Wendy Valentine: Sounds good to me.

Steve Hoffman: I haven’t tried cocaine. I suppose I could try that as well. But so far, sleep is the right answer.

What came first, the taxes or the writing? Very much the writing

Wendy Valentine: So, what came. What came first, the chicken or the egg? what came first, the taxes or the writing?

Steve Hoffman: Very much the writing. I was a language and literature student in college and all throughout high school. So, I took French starting in 7th grade. I loved books as a kid. I was kind of a, an introvert, a little bit of a bookworm as a child. And so I escaped into books. And then in college I studied French, English and ancient Greek. And so, I mean, the only reason that I didn’t go into academia is that I married Mary Jo and that just, you know, threw my life into, a wonderful disarray. But, you know, those did not, those did not, endow me with very many marketable skills. So the middle of my life was, okay, how do I make a living with, you know, I could write a great paper on Hamlet, but I can’t, you know, I don’t have anything that anybody wants to pay me for. And walking the streets of Paris is not an employable skill. So I ended up, I was mister mom with our daughter for the first, four years of her life. I ended up doing some real estate handyman contracting work, and then eventually inherited this tax prep business for my mother in law. So, writing late in life, I rediscovered it in my mid forties while we were in France. Was, very much a reintroduction of myself to my earlier self or a rediscovery of an early love, that I had fiddled with over the years but never felt like I had the authority to pursue seriously. but yes, the chicken egg question, the first was very much books, language, turns of phrase, beautiful writing, literature. That was my first love for sure.

Wendy Valentine: Do you find it like really? I would think so. But very rewarding now that you can give it the time and attention that it deserves, the writing piece of it.

Steve Hoffman: Absolutely. First of all, again, it took me into my mid forties, I think, to be a serious enough human being that I felt comfortable writing, if that makes sense. I tried it in my twenties and thirties. I tried writing short fiction, I tried writing poetry, and I just felt like there wasn’t enough there. There wasn’t enough me. I hadn’t lived enough life. I hadn’t thought I’d thought I’d had. I thought in an intellectual way, in a sort of philosophical way about life by taking courses in college. But I hadn’t thought about life very seriously in a way that would translate into the kind of wisdom, I think, that leads to good writing. And so it was very much my mid forties before I felt like I had that the right almost to share my thoughts with other people. but, yeah, I mean, the ability to do this is an enormous gift, and it’s interesting. Part of the reason, I mean, I mean, yes, in a sort of philosophical way, I feel grateful all the time that I get to do this in a sort of very technical, and tactical way. Its crazy how well tax preparation fits into this life, which is theres this first half of the year where I make almost all the money that were going to make as a family for the entire year in the first five to six months of the year. And that buys me a tremendous amount of creative freedom in the second half of the year. So, again, as unromantic, as sort of completely boring green eye shade pencil pusher, know, Steve, in the first half of the year, I call Mary Jo and I both call it self patronage, which is, you know, it’s a way of essentially being your own grant program, right. Instead of. Instead of trying to get money from you, know, the government or from private grants or, you know, trying to win and win awards or whatever, are. My first half of the year is my grant program that buys me some creative freedom in the second half of the year. And I think it’s an interesting model for creatives generally. Like, I think a lot of creatives think that you got to just go out and hustle all the time, and there’s this sort of grind, hustle, grind culture. And, you know, a lot of our creative friends, we’re watching as they get into it. First of all, it looks exhausting, you know, because there’s no money in it. I mean, you have to, you have to earn every single dollar. You got to, you know, you got to work for every single dollar. And at some point, it doesn’t look as if they’re doing the stuff that they love that got them into this in the first place. They’re having to do whatever they can do for whoever will pay them for their content. Meanwhile, up against all kinds of people who are creating for free. And it’s hard, and so, but, ah, it sounds romantic, and so I think there’s a real attraction to that. But I also think, you know, I guess I would advocate for it’s, it’s okay to have a boring job that pays the bills and then, yeah, do what you love in the meantime.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, I totally agree, because it doesn’t have to be, you know, all or nothing. I do think that, and that’s kind of how I set myself up. As well. And I did the corporate thing. I ran several different medical practices. Like some people. Like what? Yeah, I mean, I literally would sit in front of a computer all day long, but I always had that vision of someday I’ll be sitting by an ocean and writing a book about what? I don’t know.

Steve Hoffman: Yep.

Wendy Valentine: Which you’re now doing to do that creativity stuff that I love. which it helps. Then, like, the knowing that then I was like, okay, I can handle sitting in front of this computer, you know, entering medical claims in, you know, whatever, just knowing that’s around the corner. But then I did, you know, try to set myself up to be able to do what I’m doing right now, which makes it. I shared with you earlier, it’s like, okay, you know, it’s like I don’t have to get up and write. I get to get up and write. I get to write a book. I get to do this podcast. I get to do all these things that I’ve been waiting for, like, my whole life. And so it’s very freeing. I’m very, just grateful, very grateful that I get to do that. Yeah.

Steve Hoffman: It can be easy to forget when you’re in the middle of that hard work on the creative side, to m remember that. Oh, wait a minute. I worked really hard to get to this. it can feel overwhelming. It can feel like. I also feel as if one of the challenges of creative work is, I think David Bowie talked about this at one point. He talked about, have you heard this quote where if you’re creating the right way, it’s like being in the pool when your toes have just stopped touching the bottom, and so you’re sort of bobbing up and down at the very limits of your abilities. Right. and that is hard. That’s hard work. It’s not, you’re not in the shallow end, you’re not standing on your feet. You’re kind of drowning just a little bit all the time. And, but it takes being there to do good work. You should, you have to be at that, sort of out at the outer edges of your, of your abilities, or there’s no sort of new discoveries that are happening and there’s no, there’s. There’s no sort of pushing yourself into new realms. But it is also. That’s a hard place to be. It’s an uncomfortable place to be, and it can be really exhausting.

Did your writing style change at all when you got into your forties

Wendy Valentine: Did your writing style change at all when you got into your, your forties and fifties?

Steve Hoffman: Yeah, for sure. I talk about this a lot, actually. A big part of why. So I wrote this book for ten years. So, literally, this book was my forties and fifties. and my, you know, the writers that I loved early were writers who wrote these sort of beautiful, dazzling linguistic surfaces. They were, you know, Vladimir Nabokov and John Updike and JD Salinger and James Joyce, and they just sort of drew you along with this beautiful. On this beautiful surface of language, almost really on the more poetry side rather than the prose side. And that’s what I wanted to imitate, and I got fairly good at it. And that was what started off my food writing career, was this ability to describe things well and to use language in a kind of, you know, in a very compelling way.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Steve Hoffman: Then when it was time to write the book, I was still doing that. And there was a very. There was a very big turning point in the evolution of the book and the evolution of my writing, which was the point at which, first of all, it was actually a person who did this for me. It was a writing coach who said, steve, you’re a very good writer, but nobody cares. And, and I was seven years into this effing book, right? I got 130,000 words I’ve written. I’ve been working on it for seven years. I’ve been redoing and redoing this material. And she’s like, Steve, nobody cares. And the reason that nobody cared is that that type of writing was a form of, showing off. It was, it was, it was. It had ego in it, and that created a distance between me and the reader, because the reader was also going to sense that I was here showing them what a beautiful writer I was, not trying to be human and be vulnerable and communicate with them. And that was the turning point. And then it ended up that that coach was not the right coach for me for other reasons. She was pushing me to write a different book from what I wanted to write. However, she will always be, I will forever be grateful for her for calling bullshit on me, which Mary Jo had tried to do, but your spouse could never do it. Right? I mean, Mary Jo had the same message for a long time, but I was. I wouldn’t listen to personalized.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, and then once you tell her, I’m sure you told her that, and.

Steve Hoffman: Oh, yeah, she’s like, I’ve been telling you. How long have I been telling you?

Wendy Valentine: Oh, now you listen.

Steve Hoffman: Yeah, exactly. So, but that was, that was really big. And, you know, your question, did your writing change? Yes, it did. And it, it became the kind of writing where I invited people to get to know me, and, I. And I allowed myself to be in process and vulnerable on the page to be somebody or a character or a narrator who didn’t have all the answers. And I think that’s what turned this book into something that is now not just a fun little travelogue, but a moving, memoir.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. And I think that’s one thing, too. especially, like, at this time in our life, if people want to embrace or try to do something new, a new career or a new hobby or whatever, they overthink it or they self sabotage. Like, oh, I’m not gonna be good enough to do this, or, I’m, you know, but really, I think if you just simplify it. And I’ve had to remind myself in my own writing that I’m doing now, I’m like, when I get stuck, it’s because I’m trying to make it into, like, just the dog ate the cat. Like, just say it. And honestly, I feel nowadays, I don’t know about you, but I feel that writing in general, overall, in the world has changed. People are wanting the very, like, I love, you know, very creative writing, but sometimes even myself as a reader, I just like to tell me, yeah.

Steve Hoffman: Our attention spans have gotten shorter. Absolutely.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. Like, cut the fluff, you know, less fluff and more formula. Like, let get to the point.

Steve Hoffman: And I think that’s actually a very old lesson of writing. I mean, that’s been around forever. Yes, people’s attention spans are shorter. They expect us to get to the point faster. But there’s still an element to writing that has always been there, which is if it contributes, it stays, and if it doesn’t contribute, it has to go. No matter how beautiful it is, no matter how much you think you’re expressing yourself and letting the world get to know who you are, whatever. If it doesn’t contribute to the story, it goes. And that was another struggle that I had, is letting go of my beautiful darlings and, you know, and, killing them off so that the story could do what it was it was supposed to do. And I also think there is. There’s an element of patience and of letting you know every book is its own thing, and you have to. You have to let the book happen at the book’s pace. You can’t impose a pace on the book, because if you don’t understand what the book is about, you can’t write the book, and you have to let it speak to you for a while, too.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

You went to France in 2012 as a family trip

So when did you move to France?

Steve Hoffman: We went to France in 2012. it was family. Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: So that’s when like the whole. Did you know you were going to write the book before you went?

Steve Hoffman: I didn’t know I was going to write, honestly. We went in 2012 as a family trip.

Wendy Valentine: Mm. It’s probably all the, all the talking. I’ve been doing the same thing all day. Sorry, everyone. Everyone take a quick break now.

Steve Hoffman: So, yeah, we went in 2012. It was, ah, an effort to get the kids to cement their French. They’d taken French in school. We were there. We were going to put them in local schools. I had journaled during other trips that we’ve taken together, but this time I did it seriously. And this time we were having a different kind of experience. We were getting very, very deep. I was getting deep into cooking and mediterranean food and wine. I was getting deep into, winemaking. I was working in the vineyards. I was working in the winery. And I just kept, I kept sitting at the computer every day, just trying to get these episodes down so that I wouldn’t forget. And that was what led to the first three articles that I wrote for the Star Tribune. And then those won a national food award. And then I suddenly had a food writing career. But we went there. It was just going to be another family trip. And Mary Jo and I liked doing that kind of thing. We liked the sort of whimsy of, you know what? We’re going to go and we’re going to put the kids in school and we’re going to be somewhere we’ve never been before, and f*** it, we’re going to figure it out. You know what I mean?

Wendy Valentine: That’s my motto.

Steve Hoffman: So there was a deliberate sort of lack of planning involved, and we didn’t really know what it was going to, what the harvest was going to be.

Wendy Valentine: Yes. And I’m all about, like, the no plan plan, you know, like, I’m one of those, I’ll make a plan kind of, sort of, but I don’t have it all figured out. And that I will get it figured out as I go along. And I think that’s the beauty of it. But a lot of people, it’s, you know, paralysis by analysis. They won’t start because they don’t have it all figured out. That’s the beauty of the journey.

Steve Hoffman: Exactly. Exactly.

Wendy Valentine: Like, you wouldn’t be here right now talking to me if you had not just like, okay, let me just maneuver through this and see what happens.

Steve Hoffman: And even more so because, you know, that was 2012 was the year that I started writing again. 2012 was also the year that Mary Jo started her still blog project. So still, her still project, her photography project started on January 1 of 2012. And so we got there, and again, some of the sort of lack of planning or not having everything scheduled gave us the margin, gave us the mental bandwidth to say, oh, wait a minute, we have a little time here. We could try something either new or in our case, something old that we haven’t done in a long time, but that we know we love. And that that was literally where the idea of this practicing for retirement came. Came was, okay, we’re in our forties. The act three is coming up. Right? The reason that we’re here in the first place is because Eva is going to be gone in seven years, which is like this freak out moment for us. So we’re here so that we can be with the kids. We can do something kind of extraordinary as a family. But also we have this opportunity here to try something, and we’ve got ten or 15 years to let it simmer and turn into something interesting. And it was a really, it was enormous turning point at that point that sort of becoming intentional about the fact that this is where we are in life right now. This is what’s coming up. We have an opportunity to start preparing for that now, rather than getting taken by surprise.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. Being proactive rather than reactive.

Steve Hoffman: Exactly. Right.

Wendy Valentine: And I think that’s what happens. A lot of people, they will, they’re like, oh, my God, the kids are gone. And, oh, my gosh. Like, all. What happened?

Steve Hoffman: Like, where, who is this, who’s this person across the table from me that I’ve been married to for 40 years? I have no idea who you are, you know? Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: Like, oh, you don’t even like to travel crap, you know?

Steve Hoffman: Right, right, exactly. Exactly. I don’t know what to say to you. If we’re not talking about the kids, I don’t know what, I don’t know what we will have to talk about. So I really think about that a lot. I think about, okay, so there was that. There was this, okay, this. This idea of thinking in decades of, okay, we got ten years and we could get really good. Anybody can get really good at something if you start. Start it and just do it for ten years. And that can take away some of the fear of starting because you don’t have to be good at it now, but if you start it now, you’re going to be good at it in ten years. And that’s a really freeing and liberating thought.

Not enough people think about intangible assets they’re investing in during middle life

I also think, though, that there is an element, another way of thinking ahead is a lot of people worry about saving enough money so that they’ll have enough money at the end. But I think not enough people think about the intangible assets that they’re investing in over the course of their middle life, and those are equally, those are every bit as much investments. They just pay off in a different way. But you put time and effort and energy into them. You essentially save, you contribute to them, you nurture them, they grow and then they blossom later in your life. And I think it’s so important to have, if you’re married and you don’t have a shared narrative about where you’re going together, that’s not going to magically appear in 15 years when you retire, that 15 years from now is going to be an extension of what you’ve already been doing. It’s not something where you can just shut off the valve and then suddenly change your entire life, that, you can’t unburden yourself of that baggage of the rest of your life, which is a good baggage in many ways. It’s, all of your experiences, all of your wisdom that all is going to get carried into the next phase of your life when it happens, but, it’s going to be so much richer if you started to till and prepare the ground for that earlier. And some of those assets that you’re going to carry into that third act of your life are not mutual funds and stocks and bonds. They’re friendships and relationships with your kids, and skill sets that you can practice, that you love, those are all equally ways of thinking ahead, I think, in our underappreciated, when people start thinking about retirement because everybody’s worried about running out of money. And in my circles, I think far more of my friends are going to die with too much money than die with not enough money.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, I think there’s a statistic about that. I have to ask chat GPT about that. But it’s true, though. I mean, the way I look at it, you come in to the world with nothing, you’ll leave with nothing, right? So, like, why not, you know? And we don’t know. I mean, I, my ex husband died at the age of 26 years old. He never even had a chance to make it, to quote unquote midlife.

Steve Hoffman: Right?

Wendy Valentine: So I think about that. I’m like, I don’t, I don’t want to waste that, that time and that energy and, and yes, you might have to do some jobs that you’re not totally in love with, but make sure you counteract that and balance that out with things that are fulfilling to you.

Steve Hoffman: Right, right.

Wendy Valentine: And I love that you said that. It’s like kind of prepping in, you know, for midlife and beyond, because eventually you’re not going to be having this, you know, whatever, nine to five job or, you know, you’re going to need some things that are fulfilling to you and why not try to discover those now?

Steve Hoffman: Right? Exactly. Exactly.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Steve Hoffman: And I mean, not only that, but I think, again, for a lot of us who are parents.

Steve Hoffman: you have to remember that you’re not just living your life, you’re modeling your life for the next two generations. Right. I, so if what you’re showing your kids and grandkids is here’s what life’s about, you work your a** off and then, and then you run away from all of that because it was so unfulfilling and toxic and terrible. And then you try to live your life starting at about approximately age 65.

Wendy Valentine: Yes.

Steve Hoffman: Is that the model that you want? Is that, is that how you want to show that life should be lived? And I think that, I think everybody, everybody would say no, except so many people still live with that mentality.

Wendy Valentine: Oh, yeah. A ton. Yeah. You know, it’s interesting, coming over here to Europe. It seems, it seems they do play more, I feel like, than Americans.

Steve Hoffman: Absolutely, absolutely.

Wendy Valentine: Over here on the island, I mean.

Steve Hoffman: Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah. Right. Try to get a band aid at about noon. Right.

Wendy Valentine: I know as I’m sitting here working, I’ll look out the window, I’m like, my God, everyone’s out there dining. And I’m like, exactly, exactly.

Steve Hoffman: It’s so, it’s so weird as an American. Yeah. To try to, try to adapt to that. But I agree. And they do play, and you know. Yeah, I think, yes. We all sort of worship some, you know, a bit of that european, sort of graceful way of living. But it’s based on pretty simple principles. And it’s a lot of what we’re talking about, which is, you know, that don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t let your spending, don’t let your saving muscles get so big that your spending and pleasure muscles atrophy.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Steve Hoffman: That’s, I think, what they’re doing, exactly. In a way. And that we’re doing. You, know, I don’t think it’s night and day. It’s just that the american mindset tends to be more, go, go, accumulate, accumulate, accumulate. Progress, progress, progress. And I think there’s an understanding in Europe that, that, that idea of progress is a little bit misleading and it’s a little bit of the carrot in front of the donkey and you keep chasing it, but you never get there.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, exactly.

Steve Hoffman: Whereas right now, you’ve got this family that you could be spending time with and you could be investing in, and you could be enriching your relationship with. That’s here right now. That’s worth risking a little bit of future, income or assets in order to make this a beautiful thing right now.

Steve Hoffman: Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: To me, I would rather spend money on experiences than stuff. I mean, because I guarantee you, like, when I’m on my deathbed, I’m not going to be thinking about my pottery barn couch. I’m so glad I put that thing on layaway and finally got it out, you know, I’m like, d***, you know? but, yeah. And I feel, I mean, for me, I wanted to be able to experience more of life. I wanted to be able to travel and meet, different people and different cultures and different foods, all of that. And in order for me to do that, I had to get rid of the big house and the burbs and the fancy cars. I didn’t need all of that, really. And once I got rid of all that, I was like, oh, okay, I don’t have. I don’t have to pay someone to mow the yard. That’s that now, that money I can use towards traveling or whatever, but. And I think sometimes we don’t give ourselves permission to do that, to go ahead and, like, completely revamp your life if you want to do that, so that you can live more and do things that are more fulfilling.

Your podcast is called midlife makeover

Steve Hoffman: Here’s what I would say, though, too, is, you know, your podcast is midlife makeover. I think the word makeover is interesting. I don’t know if it was intentional or not, but a makeover. A makeover is not a tear down and rebuild.

Wendy Valentine: Right?

Steve Hoffman: Does that make sense?

Wendy Valentine: Yep.

Steve Hoffman: A makeover. The structure of that house is still there when you do a makeover. And I think I. I think that’s an important concept, that. That even your fairly radical midlife makeover was still built on the foundation of Wendy Valentine, right?

Wendy Valentine: Yep.

Steve Hoffman: And I think everybody has to remember that, that you’re still stuck with you, you know? Yeah, exactly. And you know, that you could, you know, at some point that, you know, wherever you take yourself, you’re still there. And there’s, there is an important element of respecting all the previous use that you’re setting aside for now in order to try new things. But those previous versions of you were a part of you and inform who you are now. And it’s important, I think it’s still important to really, to respect them and to consider your life, a continuity rather than a series of radical departures.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, exactly. It’s not like, okay, it stops here and starts here and stops and, and starts. Exactly. It continues on. And I, well, as far as writing, I fell in love with writing in Paris when I was going to school, for patisserie. And, you know, I, I remember, like, I take myself back to that time when I was there and, and remember how much I loved it and why I wanted to bring that back into my life. And sometimes we need to do that. Like, we have to go back in those, you know, these last few decades of our life and go, what did I really enjoy? What have I loved? Or even as a child, or,

Steve Hoffman: I think as a child is hugely important. What, you know, what did you want to be when you were nine or twelve? I think that, I think that’s hugely important because that really never does go away.

Wendy Valentine: No. What did you want to be when you were.

Steve Hoffman: I want to be a writer. I want to be absolutely. Even way back then, I never would have believed I could have been. But, yes, that’s one of my, one of my, a writer and athlete were the two things that I wanted to be in. yeah, I got one of them.

Wendy Valentine: I wanted to be a veterinarian. I have a little dog. That’s about all. I, I don’t think I could. Yeah. But, I think it was when I was 19 or 20 years old, and that’s when I realized, oh, I’m a good writer. And it was in college and I had turned a paper in, and she’s like, this is really good. I was like, really? Like, oh. Because I thought that I wasn’t writing fancy enough. I didn’t think I was a good writer because I couldn’t add all of these fancy adjectives and, I don’t know, the dog ate the cat.

Steve Hoffman: Right, right, exactly.

Wendy Valentine: But apparently some people like that style of writing. But, yeah, I think it’s really important for people to kind of go back through the years of experiences and travels and people that you’ve met and think about what really is fulfilling.

Steve Hoffman: Yeah, I think there’s two parallel tracks. There’s the external exploration and the internal exploration, and I think you have to do both. And the internal exploration is what helps you understand the continuity portion. And it’s similar in, you know, the story in my book is very much an external and internal journey. I don’t like the word journey so much as you overuse these days. But. But there’s, you know, there’s a story of our family’s integration into this tiny village. and then there’s the story of this, of being accepted, and then there’s this internal story of being accepted. And I think of accepting myself, of basically having the village’s acceptance of me, convince myself that I’m worthy of accepting myself. but I do think that, again, I love the idea of exploration. I love the idea of bringing new things into your life. And I think, I think. But I also think it’s really important to balance that idea with the fact that what you’re bringing those new ideas into is in some sense not necessarily the same, but it’s a continuity of who you are and have always been. And I do think there is a. I think, again, it’s what we’ve been talking about, this idea that retirement can be a complete break from the past. I think people have this idea that it’s going to be a promised land and everything’s going to get taken care of. I think it’s really important to resist that temptation to think that way, because it’s going to be better if you start thinking about it earlier.

Wendy Valentine: Right, exactly. You’re not going to just start living at midlife. You start living even. I mean, you should be living throughout your entire life, but being more conscious of it, more mindful of it. And like you said earlier, being more proactive about the upcoming years.

There are seasons to a life and that you have to participate fully in them

And sometimes we just don’t think about that stuff.

Steve Hoffman: You know, another thing that I think Europe does well, is thinking, seasonally. and certainly, you know, where we were in France, there was, you know, because it’s a grape, it’s a wine region. Seasons are built into the DNA of everybody’s thinking about life. You know, when the grapes are ready to be harvested, you harvest the grapes. That’s all you do after that. You know, it’s hunting season after that, because that’s when you can hunt. And then it’s mushroom season because that’s when mushrooms grow, and then it’s pruning season because that’s the only way time you can do it, if the vines are going to grow properly the next year. But the other thing that it really taught me is the idea that there are seasons to a life and that you have to participate fully in the season that you’re in.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Steve Hoffman: Because if you don’t, there’s going to be regrets and you won’t have prepared for the next season to come as well.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Steve Hoffman: and I. Maybe that’s another way of looking at it. In other words, is this idea of, this is my, like, if you’re a father, that’s your season. That’s what you got to do right now, you know? And, and then, and then when you no longer have to be a father full time, when your kids are out, if you’ve done that season right, those relationships are going to be there for you when, when the kids are gone as well. So, anyway, I found that really a really helpful way of thinking about life, that. That it’s not a progress. It’s not a. It’s not a. It’s not a progress toward a goal. It’s a, it’s a sort of circular, seasonal, much more gentle way, of time passing. And all you really have to do is do this season well and the other seasons are going to kind of take care of themselves.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. So, very good. Is that in the book?

Steve Hoffman: It is in the book, actually, yes.

Wendy Valentine: well, you always talk about, like, our, you know, we’ll talk about, like, the seasons of life, but more of like, okay, I’m in the winter season because I’m going through a s* period of life, and that could be right. You know? But, yeah, yeah. I mean, and just to flow through it, embrace it for what it is.

Steve Hoffman: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: I mean, and you’re going to have things happen in life that would, you know, would not want to experience. Just, for example, like my ex husband dying at, 26 years old. I would have rather not gone through that particular season of my life, but I did. And just embracing that and going, okay, what can I learn from this? How can I move out of this season and into the next season?

Steve Hoffman: Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: And I think instead of trying to cling to the season, really, you know.

Steve Hoffman: Exactly. Or try to ignore it or try to pretend it didn’t happen, you know, sort of avoid the pain of that. I think it’s another way of saying that it’s important to accept the facts of your life.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Steve Hoffman: And that that acceptance is the first step toward making something else out of your life. But the first. The first thing you have to do is accept the facts of your life. And I think a lot of us are trying to avoid our lives you know, and I think part of it is just in its. And this is, you know, this is coming from a slightly privileged position of having a career, having a family. Nobody’s had died, nobody has had cancer. Like, you know, I accept that I’m speaking from a place that not everybody has a chance to speak from. And then, and then saying things as if they’re universally true. but, yeah, well, I think.

Wendy Valentine: Too, about especially, of course, midlife. You know, it’s like, even that term alone is like, midlife crisis. Oh, my God, the empty nest. I’m like, menopause. And I’m like, is it really that bad? Just like you said, it’s a season. Yes. You’re. I mean, you have children, most likely you’re gonna have an empty nest.

Steve Hoffman: Yes.

Wendy Valentine: Right. If you’re a woman, you’re gonna go through menopause, like, welcome, you know, but it’s just part of it. I personally, of course, I love midlife. I think it’s like this magical time in life to kind of like you’re. You’re still, you’re old enough to know what worked and what didn’t work in your life before, but you’re still young enough to do something different or make it even better, or just like you said, instead of becoming better writer, you became a better human being.

Steve Hoffman: Yeah, for sure. For sure. yeah, I think, you know, I do. I do think that there’s an american, Americans are in love with youth, and I do think that leads to a lack of acceptance of the wisdom that comes with middle age.

Wendy Valentine: Yes. I actually just wrote, a chapter the other day about it’s kind of like the pro aging and embracing where you are instead of worrying about the latest cellulite cream or, I mean, you think about Amelia Earhart or. I’m drawing a blank. I’m trying to think of, like, some of the great women that have, like, changed things for us, right? Like, they weren’t worried about bikini season, you know, like, they were too busy kicking a** and, you know, being the trailblazers for us when we’re over here going, I need to go to a Botox party and, like, enough. Like, what if I don’t lose these last five pounds? What if you don’t like, you know, I mean, it’s just there’s so many greater things to enjoy in life and to make a difference, I think.

Steve Hoffman: Yeah. And I think there. I think that the wisdom that the people around us could benefit from if we allowed ourselves to become wise comes from that idea of acceptance.

Wendy Valentine: Yes.

Steve Hoffman: You know, one of the.

Our time in France changed our thinking about travel

Again, one of the other big lessons of this, our time in France was, I would say, related to this. First of all, our next door neighbor ended up becoming this sort of mentor and friend, and father figure to me. And this is a man who lived his entire life in the same house. He lives in the house that he grew up in. He’s never seen Paris. He doesn’t have a computer, but one of the wisest men I’ve ever met. And his wisdom came from acceptance of his circumstances. He grew up in a winemaking village. He’s a grape grower and a farmer, and. And is. And loves all of what there is to know about wine, the nature. About wine, nature, and everything that surrounds him. He’s. His. His knowledge is very, very limited, in a way, and yet it’s that. That acceptance that. That not trying to fight his circumstances.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Steve Hoffman: Led to this sort of incredible generosity and this. This viewpoint, this vantage point on life that I learned so much from. And I compare him to somebody who’s been seeking all their life, who’s always jumping from one place to another and always looking for the next thing, and is always sort of fighting who they are, always trying to recapture something from their past. And that’s not somebody that I would go to for wisdom. That’s not somebody I would go to ask for answers about my life, but I would go to Jean Luc and ask what he thought about some of the biggest questions of my life, because I know he’s had the time to think about them, and he comes at them from a very specific perspective. I think that’s really important. And what it also then did is it changed our thoughts about travel, because M. I think travel encourages that sort of add. The best thing is always the next thing you’re going to do right. It’s not what you’re doing right now. It’s the thing that we can sell you that will get you to the next place just over the horizon, and that’s where all the answers lie. And then when you get there, the answers actually are really going to lie just over the next horizon, at the next place you go to. And, getting to know winemakers, who, by definition, have to be in the same place, because that’s where their vines are, was a way of learning the importance of starting to think about travel, not as how many places can I see? How many places can I really get to know? And about going fewer places and staying longer in a similar way to what you’re doing now as well. Yeah, I think that’s a new model that, I would love to see more people at least consider.

Wendy Valentine: So funny, I was just thinking about that today. It sounds so dumb, but I was watching, maybe it was a weather channel or something, but it showed the earth, just planet Earth on the tv. And I was like, planet Earth is like, so big.

Steve Hoffman: It’s really big.

Wendy Valentine: It’s dumb to say that, but I.

Steve Hoffman: Know, I know exactly.

Wendy Valentine: It was showing all the different countries. I was like, wow. And, you know, I’m not somebody that has, like, I must see all the countries in the world. Like, you don’t have to. I mean, I, you know, I plan to live to 100, but even still, like, I don’t want to, like, run myself ragged just so I can see, say, I went to, you know, Tokyo or something like that. But, but yes, I feel like since I’ve been over here in Portugal, I’ve even slowed down on the traveling or that, like, that sense of urgency. Like, I gotta go to Germany next month, you know, like why? Like, it’s, and it all comes down to just being more present and being more mindful and stopping to even look out the window at the people drinking the coffee down there, you know, like, it’s just so, it’s, I love watching life, if you will. Whereas before, for me, especially my twenties and thirties, it was go, go, go, raising the kids and, like, watching life. I don’t have time for that, but I love sitting back and observing and enjoying other people, enjoying life.

Steve Hoffman: and I think the other, the other element to that that’s really important is that there’s a very difficult realization at some point that the answer is doing less rather than more. And we’re all encouraged to think that more is better and less is not as good. But a true happiness and wisdom, I think, comes from making really hard decisions about what’s my core purpose and what are my core relationships. And then, you know, say no to, first of all, all the things you don’t want to do, which is already hard enough, right? But then you have to say no to quite a few things that you actually really do want to do and really love. Because if you do all those things, you’re going to be a little bit better than mediocre at a bunch of things. Or you can, you can sort of, pull back into your core self and get really good at the few things that really matter. That’s such a hard process. And then that idea of elimination being a way toward richness is so fought by every force in current society is encouraging us to think the opposite of that. I think that’s one of the, one of the most beautiful and important, but very difficult challenges of this middle age thinking about life is actually, no, I need to do less. I need to cut more things. I don’t need to do more things.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, I totally agree. Especially in this, like, line of work that we’re in this industry. There’s so many different avenues and different things that you can do as a writer and a podcast, this and that, and many of them out there doing amazing things. But I also, like, I think about it, like, I’m designing my life for me, and I don’t care what the experts say or whatever, even like, for personal life. Right? Like, no, you know, this is what works for me. Like, I’m going to do this, this and this and have these friends I don’t need any more friends. I don’t need. But I think it’s, it’s a matter of just finding what works for you, what feels good to you at this time in your life. And I find that that changes. Like, what was good for me in my twenties and thirties and forties. Totally different now. Totally different.

Steve Hoffman: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely.

Wendy Valentine: I’m like an energy snob now. I’m like taking up too much of my, my thoughts or my energy. I’m like, let’s just get it out. Like, I don’t want to. Shoo. Shoo.

Steve Hoffman: Yeah. I also just think there’s this idea of having a margin in your life. And again, the busyness ensures that we don’t have a, quite often financial margin, which gives you breathing room to. But I think psychic, psychic margin is equally important. And there’s, again, the encouragement is to be sort of half present all the time and there’s no time, there’s no time to reflect and let life happen a little bit, you know?

Wendy Valentine: Right.

Steve Hoffman: we’re all trying to bond with our kids between six and 08:00 p.m. because we don’t have time to do it any other way. And yet the real bonding happens when it happens, and you just, you have to be there more often. and to be there more often means you have to do fewer things.

Wendy Valentine: Yep.

And speaking of seasons, I think there’s even those as a parent than as a writer

And speaking of seasons, I think there’s even those as a parent than there’s seasons as a parent. You know, it’s like when they’re in their twenties or they’re not quite in relationships yet, and then when they do get married, it’s those are their seasons. And to embrace that, like, I still, like, I’ve got three boys, you know, they’re all doing their thing. And as a mom, it’s like, why haven’t anyone called me or texted me? And I’m like, whoa. You know, like, thinking, well, you know what they’re doing, what I set them out to do. Like, go live your life. Yes. You’re not supposed to be calling mommy every day.

Steve Hoffman: Right? And you did. And you did the all hands on deck parenting when that was what was required. And that’s what, that’s. That buys you this now.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. Yeah. I’m enjoying this season.

Steve Hoffman: That’s wonderful. It’s wonderful. And the other cool thing about young adults so far, for us anyway, is their defenses aren’t up anymore the way they were when they were teenagers, and they’re kind of building themselves, and so they have to keep you away so they can figure out who they are. And now there’s been this incredible sort of coming back to, ah, a lot of it’s coming back to what we did in France, but there’s a lot of coming back to what the family did together when they were younger that they then resisted for a while. And now that they’re adults, they don’t have to fight it anymore. And they can. We can. We can be, you know, we can do the things that we all love to do when we were younger.

Wendy Valentine: Ah.

Steve Hoffman: But now they’re doing it sort of, you know, wholeheartedly in a really fun way.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. They appreciate it more.

Steve Hoffman: Yep. For sure. For sure.

Wendy Valentine: This has been so good. I could talk to you all day.

Steve Hoffman: I know. Same. This is amazing.

Wendy Valentine: Talk about french macaroons. And I do miss baking, though. I haven’t, I haven’t had a proper kitchen between the, between the RV and this kitchen right here.

Steve Hoffman: I’m like, I can only imagine.

Wendy Valentine: I do not. I literally, I still have. I have maybe twelve boxes that I saved when I got rid of everything, and it’s all full of kitchen stuff. I could not. Yeah, they, and they are literally pans that I brought from Paris. And, like, my rolling pin every. I still have it. Like, I’m like, someday I’m gonna have an a frame and I’m gonna get back to my baking.

Steve Hoffman: But, yeah, I could talk. I could talk a lot about simplicity, but just try to take my kitchen tools away from me and, yeah, you’re gonna have a fight on your hands.

Stephen John Raymond Hoffman writes about his experiences in Paris in his new book

So I.

Wendy Valentine: What was the name of the. Against the famous one? I don’t know if pronouncing it properly. De la Reine.

Steve Hoffman: Yeah. De la Ren. Right? Yeah. In Paris. Just. Just.

Wendy Valentine: Oh, my God.

Steve Hoffman: Just acres. Acres of french kitchen tools. Oh, my God. I could die in that place. It’s amazing.

Wendy Valentine: I did. Yeah. I bought so many things. Had to buy an extra suitcase just to bring the s*** back.

Steve Hoffman: Yeah. Anytime anybody says, I’m going to Paris, where should I go? That’s the first place I tell them to go.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. My, I’ll have to share my. My greatest. One of my greatest experiences, in Paris is that, well, we would bake all day long. So I would walk from school back to my apartment with, like, tons of pastries, and I’m like, I’m not gonna eat all this. I’ll be like, I’ll blow up. Right? So I started handing them to the. To the homeless people in Paris, and it was so cool, but, like, it made me cry, but they would wait for me. And so then they started lining up. They would literally line up underneath, like, the number six subway, and they would wait for me, and they were just like, oh, my God, what’s she gonna make today?

Steve Hoffman: Like, oh, my God.

Wendy Valentine: So it was, like, the coolest thing.

Steve Hoffman: That’s amazing.

Wendy Valentine: But I would have to say it was. It was that, that connection. And this is where my. As well, you have to be somewhat of a perfectionist to be a french pastry chef. But, this is where my perfectionism didn’t really matter, because I can remember thinking, like, the chefs, like, criticizing, you know, my work, but they didn’t care. Like, when I. When I took those pastries over to the homeless people, they didn’t give a s*** if it didn’t have the right peak or, like, they didn’t care. They’re just like, so, yeah, it was, such a good experience, but thank you so much. I appreciate.

Steve Hoffman: Yeah, thank you. Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: where can we find your book?

Steve Hoffman: it’s on Amazon. and it’s on almost any bookstore in almost any american, city. but it’s also on Amazon worldwide. I’m really active on Instagram if people want to kind of get to know me a little bit better. That’s just Hoffman, Stephen John Raymond Hoffman. And the only other thing I would say is that I also narrated the audiobook, and I’m finding a lot of people. There’s a lot of French in the book, and then there’s a lot of actually regional French. So there’s a really funny sort of southern french accent. and so, a lot of people said they actually really loved the audiobook version. Because the French gets pronounced properly.

Wendy Valentine: Yes.

Steve Hoffman: and I always just prefer, ah, an audiobook read by an author. So, just, just, you know, if.

Wendy Valentine: You’Re an audience, I didn’t get to finish reading your book because I’ve been busy writing my book. But I said that because I did find, though, when I was getting to some of the french words, even though I have used to speak a little bit of French, but then I was like, oh. Like, even in my head, I was like, I’m probably, like, totally butchering that word, you know?

Steve Hoffman: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, in fact, my wife, Mary Jo, who went through this whole thing, obviously lived through the entire experience. She just left, the other Saturday morning to get coffee, supposedly, and like, 3 hours later, I call her. I’m like, where are you? She said, I’m literally driving randomly around the Twin Cities listening to your audiobook because I can’t, I don’t want to leave it behind. So, yeah, it’s really fun. It’s a fun book. It’s a super immersive book about, you know, adventure and France and mediterranean food and wine. but also a story of a family and a father kind of agonizing over these two very different children. So I think people are going to love it.

Wendy Valentine: I love, I love it so far. I love it. I know I’m going to love the rest, too, but thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Steve Hoffman: Thank you, Wendy. You’re the best.

Wendy Valentine: Thank you, everyone. Have a great day.