Vanessa Reiser specializes in narcissistic and cult abuse

Wendy Valentine: Hey, midlifers. Welcome back to the Midlife Makeover Show. Today we have an incredible guest who’s not only a powerhouse in her field, but also a true inspiration. I’m thrilled to introduce Vanessa Reiser, mother, author, entrepreneur, psychotherapist, and an advocate for raising awareness about narcissistic abuse. Vanessa specializes in narcissistic and cult abuse and has made it her mission to help people escape and heal from toxic relationships. You may have seen her featured in People magazine, the New York Times, or even on Fox News. And today, she’s here to share her expertise with us on the Midlife Maker show. In this episode, we’ll be discussing Vanessa’s new book, Narcissistic Abuse. How to Identify, Escape and Heal from Manip Manipulative, Toxic People. We’ll dive deep into the tactics narcissists use, like gaslighting, love bombing, and triangulating. Never heard of that before. I’m interested to learn this myself. And how to spot, avoid, and heal from these destructive relationships. Let’s give a warm welcome to Vanessa Risa.

Vanessa Reiser: Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: Hello.

Vanessa Reiser: Thank you for having me.

Wendy Valentine: Welcome. Those were like some big words in there. I was like, if I could just even the word narcissism, I’m like, oh, my gosh, how many S’s are in there?

What exactly is narcissism and why is it so difficult to identify

Yeah, so speaking of, I mean, yeah, the word, narcissism, the term has been thrown around so much, especially in the last, I feel like three to five years. And there’s some confusion around it, I feel. So I would love to hear from an expert such as yourself, what exactly is narcissism?

Vanessa Reiser: So narcissism, is something that some of us might possess, but somebody who has a personality disorder, the pervasive, kind of version of these characteristics, it just doesn’t go away. So this is not somebody who’s maybe having a bad day, but their baseline is to behave this way all the time. And the characteristics are many. It’s a huge recipe of sorts. It’s never really a short story. It’s always a long story when it comes to narcissistic abuse. but I would say the top three would be they are always addicts, so they are addicted to attention. they are always manipulative, so they use all of these other, ways to kind of get what they want from people, ideally attention, as I mentioned, and they are always without empathy. They know how to fake empathy. So we see this with more covert. So they are people who are indifferent to others pain, who are not interested in experiencing that Real connection with others. So I would say those would be the top three characteristics.

Wendy Valentine: M. So with. If someone can be a narcissist, but maybe, or, but then there’s, there’s that level of abuse though too, right? I mean, I guess that can be like a whole other scale.

Vanessa Reiser: So some people can be narcissistic. Right. So this might be somebody who is taking a lot of selfies, somebody who seems to be self involved or might feel they are superior to others. but by and large you have to possess a certain amount of the characteristics to be considered having the personality disorder or to have a disordered personality, which makes them pretty dangerous. because they can be so manipulative that they can crush careers, families, children. We see this in the family court system and there are often overlaps with sociopath. so this isn’t just about selfies. These people can manipulate, and really create harm. and there can, they can be involved in large criminal activities as well if we’re having the overlap of sociopathy. So they can be kind of dangerous. I know it’s a buzzword and I know people think it is about selfies and they think it’s funny and they think it’s cute or you know, I’m a narcissist. Hahaha. No, this is something that is pretty serious. It’s kind of a heavy topic and yeah, we’re hearing a lot about it, but I think there are a lot more out there than we ever realized. and we are really kind of in a culture now that’s not cultivating empathy. it’s sort of individualistic and capitalistic and we’re not the only culture like this. but we need to kind of get back to being more empathetic and really caring about others. I know Dr. Ramani talks about that a lot. Sort of leading the charge around that kind of childhood where we were watching Sesame street and we were interested in sharing and caring and being kind and a lot of that feels lost at the moment.

Wendy Valentine: Kind of like those classic golden rules, Right. Of how to treat one another.

Vanessa Reiser: Right.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. So why is it so. Well you kind of said this already, but why is it so difficult to identify then?

Vanessa Reiser: I think we’re starting to use the vernacular and we’re starting to put out into the world what the red flags look like. So I think, you know, like as you mentioned maybe five years ago, maybe even we weren’t discussing things like superficial charm, you know, when you saw your really charming neighbor or that the priest in Your, you know, Parish, who was so charming, you didn’t realize that behind the scenes there could have been something really dangerous going on. We’re seeing this with P. Diddy and pop culture. We’re seeing these beloved creatures kind of falling left and right because behind the scenes there’s a lot of really toxic behaviors. And we’re just not understanding, what was going on then. But I think we’re starting to see what it looks like. What are some of the ways that they manipulate, how they use their resources to coerce and control others? so it’s starting to bubble, and I think that’s going to be good for victims everywhere.

Is narcissism just like, even the term and the definition of it is evolving

Wendy Valentine: Is narcissism just like, even the term and the definition of it is that. Is that fairly new? Like, just even in your world of being a psychotherapist? No, it’s been around for a long time, but it’s just now kind of a new thing for us.

Vanessa Reiser: It’s sort of an age old, kind of thing. But we’re now developing the vernacular to describe all of the characteristics, and then we’re also sharing it on social media. So, social media, while it has all of its sort of perils, there are these silver linings. And I think victims have been able to connect with each other, and really sort of share what they’ve endured and collectively are beginning to speak out about it. This is something that people have had to deal with in silence because abusers are generally powerful. I think one out of four CEOs is a psychopath directly, so they climb the corporate ladder and they can sort of squash people along the way, silence them. Gretchen Carlson does a lot of work with helping people, when they have had to sign NDAs. So for a long time we haven’t had voices. And so many of my clients are in the judicial system in family court, where they have to be quiet, otherwise they will maybe lose custody of their children. they’re dealing with civil restraints, restraining orders, NDAs, and they don’t have a voice. And so I think the more we speak out about this, I think the more empowered we become.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, it’s interesting. Either the Facebook algorithm is so good that knew that you and I were going to be talking today, but I, I went onto Facebook and there was a lady that she literally had, posted about. She, like, after 20 plus years, was finally getting out of this narcissistic relationship and how she, how much she had suffered and then her children. And I was like, wow. Like, it’s. And just to your point, it’s great that it’s being talked about and that for people to be educated about it and to know that, yes, you can get out of that narcissistic, toxic relationship. So where do you even begin with that? Because that can be scary for so many, I guess, depending on the level. Yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Reiser: The narcissist, is not okay with you getting away from them. This is, like, where it really gets bad. I’m not going to lie to you. You know, this is where it gets really tricky. I think it takes people seven times or women seven times to extricate themselves from this relationship. And then the abuse can oftentimes increase or does oftentimes increase. So, you know, there’s no doubt about it. It can be worse in some ways. But the alternative is to lose yourself entirely slowly over time. And so, you know, my advice is almost always to get away, even though it’s going to suck, because, you know, five years is coming with or without our help. So if you just blink your eyes, five years will be here, come and gone. And you don’t want to be in the same scenario again. So we’ll get through it. You know, get the support of a therapist who understands it. Get a good attorney if necessary. and try your best to get away. A lot of. And I honor a lot of people can’t for financial reasons, their children. There’s so many reasons people stay. And I honor that. But by and large, I still really advocate to get out of that scenario. It’s like death by a zillion cuts.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I guess it’s one thing to identify it then knowing like, okay, I gotta get out of this. But then also, as you’re going through that, to identify the behaviors that can pull you back in. Right. What is it? Okay, another term that’s been kind of thrown around a lot. What is gaslighting exactly?

Vanessa Reiser: Gaslighting is it comes in a bunch of different forms. It is not only that cliched version of, like, I didn’t say that, or, you’re crazy, and I didn’t mean that. it comes in the form of word salad. So this is somebody who is confusing you with just cliches or, you know, nonsensical sentences that you’re kind of becoming confused. What is this person even talking about? it comes with deflection when they’re, you know, you’re talking about something specific, and then they kind of bring you into a different realm. You all of a sudden find yourself talking about something totally different. So again, to confuse you now you find yourself confused. It can be through, somebody even in your home, moving your belongings around. Another form of gaslighting is you. When you’re like, didn’t I have that sweater right here? I mean, this is what abusers do. They will literally try to make you feel crazy. And sometimes you will go crazy because you’re like, where’s my sweater? And that seems to a lot of people who don’t understand narcissistic abuse, it seems stupid. Why would someone move your sweater? The narcissist is creating chaos for sport. It’s like a cat and mouse game. So if you try to apply logic, forget about it. It’s not going to work. But it does show up in any form of communication, be it verbal or otherwise, that is designed to confuse you.

Wendy Valentine: is it curable? Is it somebody, like, born with narcissism and they stay with narcissism forever?

Vanessa Reiser: The hard sort of answer here is no, we don’t have a ton. We have no data that supports that they change. With the exception of very few outliers, these are people who probably go to intake, inpatient, kind of, you know, rehabs, and are being taught what empathy might look or feel like. But this is a really challenging thing, mostly because narcissists are not interested in changing. They’re not showing up to these inpatient places and saying, hey, help me out. I’m a narcissist and I. I want to change. They consider that’s their.

Wendy Valentine: That’s their power.

Vanessa Reiser: That’s right.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Vanessa Reiser: It is about power. That’s exactly right. And so they feel that being vulnerable or having empathy is, like, for wussies. And, like, why would I. I’m winning. Like, why would I ever change anything? You’re the problem. Why don’t you just, you know, right. Lock up and get. Get it together.

Do you think some of their behaviors are conscious or subconscious? I think a good amount are conscious

Wendy Valentine: Do you think some of their behaviors are conscious or subconscious?

Vanessa Reiser: I think a good amount are conscious. But when you develop good skills at manipulating at a young age, then it really becomes habit. That’s first of all. Second of all, I think they are constantly lying, and so they will confabulate or fill in the blanks when they forget their lies. I also believe a good amount of them are totally delusional. And I see this as mimicking in some ways, some schizophrenia, behaviors, like, where it’s so rigid, the disorder is so rigid, we don’t see a lot of flexibility or movement in, them changing. but, yeah, that’s. That’s kind of how I see It, Yeah.

Love bombing only becomes love bombing when the devaluing shows up

Wendy Valentine: What about, what are some of those other terms? Love bombing. What. What is that exactly? It sounds nice.

Vanessa Reiser: It is. Oh, it’s wonderful when you’re going through it, when you don’t realize it. Love bombing is amazing. it’s such a great drug, but at the end, when you see that it comes with this devaluing right behind it, it’s God awful. So love bombing only becomes love bombing, really, when the devaluing shows up. So if someone’s just being kind to you, then, you know, that’s wonderful. But if someone is really over the top with these, like, you are my soulmate. You are the most amazing lover. You are the, you know, the sun and the moon and poet poems and, you know, gifts and, adulation and concert tickets and diamonds and fancy, shiny rocket ships and unicorns and kittens and all of that. that’s a red flag.

Wendy Valentine: Kittens riding unicorns.

Vanessa Reiser: All of it. Anytime you see a kitten riding a unicorn, run.

Wendy Valentine: What is that other word? Triangulating. Is that it?

Vanessa Reiser: Sure.

Wendy Valentine: Say that, right? Yes.

Vanessa Reiser: Triangulating is when the narcissist has two people sort of fighting for, their good graces. The narcissistic parent does this quite a bit. They will actually put their children against each other, to manipulate and have that control and sometimes even keep them from looking, outside of the family dynamic for information because they’re so busy fighting. How could they ever understand the truth about me if I have these two at each other’s throats? So the narcissist in an, In a love affair might do it differently, might have their ex and their current supply fight for their attention, always. It’s just a way to manipulate and control.

Wendy Valentine: So. And of course, I mean, we think, I guess, that, you know, being in a narcissistic relationship, it’s with a lover, but that could also be a parent. It could be a sibling, it could be a friend. So how do you. Okay, there’s one thing like, all, right, you have that choice to get out of that relationship completely, especially if it’s, you know, a lover or partner. Right. But if it’s your parent or a sibling where you’re with, you know, of course you could leave that relationship, but if you decide to keep your parents around, like, if your parent is a narcissist, how do you manage that? How do you even set boundaries, something like that?

Vanessa Reiser: It’s very hard. and oftentimes with narcissists, we really can’t set boundaries because what narcissists See, the boundary is like, oh, that’s the thing I’m going to cross. You just gave me intel for me to exploit. So the boundary thing is okay with healthy, neurotypical brains. Those are people, those are your friends that you could say, okay, I’m gonna need space today. And they go, okay, good for you. And they support. Support your boundaries. That’s a really good way to check, to see if someone has a healthy brain is if they’re able to tolerate boundaries. M. But if your family members are narcissistic or there’s someone in your family who is a narcissist, it’s hard. It is hard because most of the time my clients are not necessarily willing to sever the relationship and go no contact altogether. So we have to sort of develop a way for them to be low contact to create harm reduction, and to kind of slowly titrate off of those relationships to where it’s manageable.

Wendy Valentine: Right. Because otherwise you do harm yourself staying in those relationships.

Vanessa Reiser: Yeah. And the narcissist is very much like a sycophant. So they tend to pull your energy. so like a vampire. Yeah, that’s exactly right. So if you’re focused on something, they become all encompassing. You become enveloped in their energy. So you have to kind of manage getting away from that. It tends to be very, codependent, when you get enmeshed in those relationships because they will isolate you and they will kind of force you to focus on everything about them. So your autonomy gets lost. And so even with a narcissist, especially actually with a narcissistic parent, your identity can get really, really lost. And most of those clients that I have have the biggest hole to climb out of because they have to develop an identity in the first place, because their identity has become like an extension of that parent in the first place.

Have most narcissists had trauma as a child? Is that. Does it stem from

Wendy Valentine: Have most narcissists had trauma as a child? Is that. Does it stem from. From trauma?

Vanessa Reiser: There are different beliefs in terms of the nature versus nurture, argument here. I tend to be leaning slightly towards the nature of it all, that there is a biological predisposition. I see a lot of lineage, and I do see the rigidity of it mimicking schizophrenia and other disorders that are pretty well established as being biological. So I think that in the family dynamic or the cultic experience of being with a narcissist who is hierarchical, they will actually groom their children. And so that’s why we see it, in the children as well. So I just, I have A hard time with the idea of trauma being the only thing, because most of my clients are traumatized and they’re not narcissistic people.

Wendy Valentine: It’s interesting because then, yeah, I would. I can see how the children would, like, their survival mechanisms would kick in, and then that can. Even later on they become more narcissist. I don’t know.

Vanessa Reiser: Also, trauma is not good for anyone.

Wendy Valentine: No.

Vanessa Reiser: Who experience trauma, are going to have different ways, as you mentioned, to sort of survive. But I’m not sure that’s the only part of this, recipe.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

What inspired you to go into this particular topic and into narcissism

What, what inspired you to go into this particular topic and into narcissism?

Vanessa Reiser: I had a relationship, and when I got out of it, I was totally confused. Even as a therapist, I hadn’t really learned too much about pathological personality disorders. And when I began to research it, I was like, wow, this is exactly what I experienced. And then, upon reflection, realized that it was not my first rodeo, that there were other partners that I had been with that were, very much, you know, akin to this kind of, version of human behavior. And I thought as a therapist, it really was my obligation to sort of sound off about this. I went to University of Southern California and I studied community organizing as a focus. And so, my advocacy piece was really part of, like, my fiber. That’s who I really am. Even though I am a therapist and I love what I do, I think the advocacy part of. Of me is the biggest part of who I am. And so I started to kind of sound off about it because I was p* myself. I realized that I did not have a child with a narcissist. And so that I had this freedom to some extent to really make noise. And. And I really realized that so many people were suffering in silence.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. And I would think too. I mean, do. Do some, you, know victims of narcissism that they, like, feel bad to themselves or they. They beat themselves up of? Like, how did I not know this? Like, even for you, it’s like, oh, my gosh, I should have known this. But it’s. It’s so easy to get into their. Under their spell, if you will. Right.

Vanessa Reiser: I mean, no one’s teaching this in elementary school. So this idea, like, how did I not know this? I mean, therapists don’t know everything. I don’t know.

Wendy Valentine: Exactly.

Vanessa Reiser: You don’t know everything. So, Yeah, I hear that a lot. You know, how did you not know this as a therapist? But, you know, you don’t know what you don’t know. What you don’t know. And nobody was teaching this in master’s program. we learned a little bit about personality disorders which are also in the DSM 5. But the DSM 5 doesn’t even really do a good job. I mean, let’s just call it what it is. The DSM M5 is like the bible for therapists. And it does nothing really to describe the insidiousness of ness. Of this. It’s like it talks about the grandiosity, it talks about, the no empathy a little. It talks about some of the nine characteristics. But, you know, this isn’t exactly like the all encompassing. Doesn’t really describe all of the things that, that I kind of put in my book and that Dr. Ramani puts in her books and others where there’s really a very long checklist of the way they behave.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, I mean, you really have to forgive anyone out there listening, like, if you identify it. I, even for me, after, I was like, I’ve identified a relationship that I had where he was a narcissist. I was like, oh my God, how did I not know? Like, holy crap. But you have to forgive yourself for not knowing, right? And give yourself grace. Because they can be so freaking good at what they do that you’re like, oh my gosh, like, looking back. And for me, during that time in my life, I had just been through some trauma and so it’s almost like I could not even see or I, I could. I didn’t pick up on all the red flags because I was so traumatized already from another experience. And then it was like, once I came out of that, it was like, holy crap. Like what? You know, and it’s. But thank God, like I think you said earlier, it’s like, okay, five years, whatever, that’ll go by and you’ll be so glad that you’re out of it. And thank God I got out of that relationship that was like, destined to just be a disaster and I was going to go down like the Titanic with it.

Vanessa Reiser: Yeah, not really. I mean, you really, you bring up a really good point, which is that they are really good manipulators. Master manipulators. These are poets, priests and politicians kissing babies, stabbing you in the, in the back. This is somebody that will donate a kidney on a Monday and then leave you homeless on a Tuesday. Like, that’s the level. They are going hard with this game because they’re impressed with themselves. They’re like, oh, it’s working.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, look what I did.

Vanessa Reiser: Yeah.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Vanessa Reiser: The game for Them is no joke. It’s really important for them to win at this game of manipulation. So there’s almost nothing that they will not do to get that kick, that dopamine kick that it’s working.

Every cult is led by a narcissist or a psychopath

Wendy Valentine: Now, what are the similarities of being like a cult leader and narcissist? Or is it the same? Are they.

Vanessa Reiser: It’s exactly the same. Okay, I know that’s weird for people, but, hard. Stop. It’s exactly the same. Every cult is led by a narcissist, a sociopath, or a psychopath. And we have the cult of one, which is the intimate relationship, the cult of five, which you see in family systems, and then the cult of millions in some political environments where somebody can manipulate a good lot of people. So it’s always led by somebody who is a master manipulator. So it’s really important for people to identify that are going through these relationships that you are in a cult. That is what it is. It’s the Keith Ranieri from the Nexium cult was totally unassuming, charming, you know, and we come to find out he was branding women with his initials. I mean, these are people that have this, like, this really big idea of taking over, you know, the Earth. They are really, really grandiose in their thinking, and they’re fantastical thinking. And so we see this in small environments, and we see it in. In bigger ones too.

So when someone has escaped a narcissistic relationship, what are some things that they can do

Wendy Valentine: So when someone has escaped a narcissistic relationship, what are some things that they can do to start that healing process? Because I’m sure it takes a long time, especially depending on the length of time that they were in that relationship.

Vanessa Reiser: What happens is most of the time when we go through the cycle of abuse, which includes the love bombing, the devaluing, and then the discard phases on the second time around, it looks like the makeup session, the tension building, the fallout. The makeup session, the tension building, the fallout. And this is the cycle of abuse. And when it repeats, you develop a trauma bond. And that means you’re looking for that fix again, make it okay again. I don’t wanna fight. and this dopamine kick that you get from it being okay again is highly addictive. And so it’s very hard to extricate yourself from that relationship because you don’t. You’re looking for that upkick. The best thing that I think works for people is to really develop a list of things that the narcissist has done to you. Put it in your phone. Really, really get into the weeds of it. Pay attention to what they’ve done. There’s a lot of cognitive dissonance, this duplicitousness between, like, who they pretend to be and who they really are in that list. So you have to focus on that. Not this sort of, version of them that they’re portraying themselves to be, but who they really are. What are their actions, what are they doing to you? What are, what are you seeing, in terms of bad behavior? Focusing on that, and then developing a list of things that you love about yourself that is not contingent upon how others experience you. And it sort of, it helps you to step into your power and move away from the seduction of this fantasy world that they’ve wrapped you up in. So you kind of looking at this as a realist, like, this is who this person is. They are this abusive person that they, that I see them being, not kind of what the public sees or this Persona that they’re playing.

Wendy Valentine: I can see though, that people probably fall into, perfectionism, people pleasing, like when you’re in a relationship like that, because you’re trying to just constantly, like, make peace with the narcissist. And like, okay, that wasn’t good enough. Let me try this. And very, like, codependent behaviors. And it’s exhausting. You know, I’m like, I feel so bad for, like, I definitely have that, I definitely have that empathy, you know, for. I mean, for the brief amount of time that I was in a relationship like that. When I look back, like, it was exhausting. Like, it’s easier, like, as you come out of it and then you look, you look at it, it’s like, oh my gosh, like you’re just going down the drain because you’re, you’re just, you’re just hanging on, trying to make sense of it all. And it’s also confusing.

Vanessa Reiser: And the irony is, like, the more energy you devote to the narcissist, the more they turn up the dial. And the more you move away from the narcissist and extricate yourself and develop auton autonomy, the more they turn up the dial. So it’s a real catch 22. You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t. If you give them everything they want, they want more, they’re going to move the goal post. And if you give them nothing, they’re going to torture you. So you’re sort of screwed.

Wendy Valentine: And you have to really stand strong.

Vanessa Reiser: Yeah, you have to. Some people have to cut their arm off just to get out of this and just run literally. And it’s that, it’s that serious for people.

Wendy Valentine: Because I saw I think it was on your website. What is on the cake.

Vanessa Reiser: Dodged the bullet. I dodged a bullet.

Wendy Valentine: Bullet. Yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Reiser: My girlfriend Yvonne bought that cake for me. but yeah, that, you know, that’s how plenty of people feel is just.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Vanessa Reiser: Getting out of that, you know, with their, the shirt on their back sometimes.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. There was also on your website, I had read it was. Because living with a narcissist can be extremely painful. It’s important to understand you are not to blame. Narcissists ensnare everyone. Learning how to leave is important. Have, have a safety bag in your car or at your friend’s home with a change of clothing and toiletries. Rebuilding a life takes courage. But you can do it. There are. That makes me want to cry but like it’s so true, right? Like there’s always hope. there are plenty of people to help you, but it may not be your family or friends. True information can be your ally to learn you are not alone. Get educated on narcissism. It will take time to heal and practice self love and self care.

Vanessa Reiser: Yeah. I think the hardest part for people isn’t necessarily the breakup. It’s the fallout after of the loss of friends and family that don’t support you. It’s the idea that the systems that were put in place to protect you will not. So the injustice of it feels like almost unbearable for many victims. But as we talked about earlier, I think we are turning that ship around. Hopefully we are going to shine a light on what this is and help people to really, really see justice ultimately.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. Because like you were saying earlier, you can feel like you’re going crazy when you’re in the relationship and you can feel like you’re going crazy when you’re trying to get out of the relationship. And then depending on the level of support from family and friends, it can make you feel like, oh my God, am I doing the right thing? Should I like, because they may not. The other. Your family and friends may not see all the other stuff that goes on behind closed doors, Right?

Wendy Valentine: Because they again, they probably manipulate your friends and family, making it seem like you are treated so well. And why would you give that up? That’s crazy.

Vanessa Reiser: Hm. Yeah. This is somebody at the end of the relationship that might, while they’re returning your belongings, you know, subtly, you know, slip into your belongings. a new Rolex. I mean the confusion that comes with that. You Know when your m. Your mother’s watching you unpack your clothing and stuff and it’s like, wait a minute.

The narcissist is always preparing to discard you at some point, right

But he. He must love you. Like it.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah, it’s.

Vanessa Reiser: And you’re like, oh, my God, this looks like. It looks like I’m doing no. And you know what they’re up to. But it sounds so crazy to describe it. So first of all, you can’t process it yourself. How are you going to then describe it? And then how the h*** are they going to believe it? It’s so unbelievable. So it’s sort of this trifecta of confusion.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. And you just have to really, again, stand strong and in. In your values and your beliefs and take care. Like the very last thing was practicing self care and self love and taking care of yourself and just going forward and not looking back.

Vanessa Reiser: Yeah. I think it’s important for people to lean into the truth. Really get. Really, get clever about what facts are because they’ve gaslit you, they’ve devalued you, they’ve confused you. Try to find things that are absolute and kind of cling to them. Try to find tribe members. There are tons of us out there that will hold space for you. it’s almost like an underground movement of sorts. And so you can find those characters and they will validate the h*** out of you. Believe me. There are some really, really amazing soldiers doing this work right now and saving lives.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. one of the things you’re known for is running across the country, I think, in a wedding dress.

Vanessa Reiser: I ran across New York state in a wedding dress. 285 miles in 11 days in 2021. And then we traversed New Jersey, Connecticut and Massachusetts. But yeah, that was, a really healing and transformative experience. and I highly recommend it if you’re crazy enough to do it. but it is really healing. Everyone has their thing. Right. Running is mine. But everybody should find that thing that makes you feel empowered.

Wendy Valentine: Why the wedding dress? What’s the meaning behind that?

Vanessa Reiser: Sure. The wedding dress represents a carrot that the narcissist dangles. So this future faking of, I’m going to give you the perfect life. The picket fence, the children, the puppies the kittens on unicorns. So the. The dress is really a symbol of how they manipulate your kind of brain to think about this fantasy story world that they’re living in.

Wendy Valentine: The fairy tale with the kittens and the unicorns and the wedding dress and everything. Like the runaway bride, right?

Vanessa Reiser: Yep, yep.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. And there was a. There was something else I Saw on your website, too. said he was able to continue to soul rape others, which I thought was such a. An interesting way to put it, because they really are. That’s what they’re doing is like raping your soul.

Vanessa Reiser: Yeah. The narcissist is soul sucking. Sandra Brown refers to this relationship as a relationship of inevitable harm. As I mentioned earlier, you’re damned if you do, you’re damned if you don’t. The dials getting turned up. The narcissist is always preparing to discard you at some point. They have supplemental supplies all the time. There’s somebody always sort of in that gaggle of creatures that they’re getting attention from. Some of their attention. Some of the attention they could be getting could also be from their own children. But they have like a bunch of people that they’re constantly pulling from. And all of those people will ultimately be depleted and discarded.

Wendy Valentine: Man. Exhausting.

Vanessa Reiser: I know. I often think about narcissists and how tired they must be because it’s exhausting.

Wendy Valentine: Oh, yeah. To keep up with all that. But that’s their fuel that drives them though, right? Again, like that’s their power. Some wild way they enjoy that. Enjoy. Like sucking the life out of you.

Vanessa Reiser: That’s right.

Vanessa Riser is a licensed psychotherapist in several states

Wendy Valentine: Wow. So, your website. Teletherapist.net Yep.

Vanessa Reiser: T L L A therapist dot net.

Wendy Valentine: Which I love. I love the name. Now, are you able to help people from anywhere or only in certain states?

Vanessa Reiser: I am licensed in New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Florida and I do provide life coaching in different states. I also have clinicians that work under me and I have a nonprofit called tellatherapist.org where we will refer you to a narc savvy clinician in your respective state if that’s what you need. Because there are times where you need somebody credentialed in your state. If you’re going into the judicial system specifically and you need somebody who’s an expert that can do, let’s say, like a biopsychosocial to support you as you go up against this monster in that county or region that you’re in. So we don’t leave anybody without services. We are serious about covering it like we have.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah.

Vanessa Reiser: We can’t cover you here. We’re going to cover you there.

Wendy Valentine: We’ll cover you there. Cover you everywhere. I love it.

Vanessa Reiser: We got you.

Wendy Valentine: And what about on social media? Where can we find you?

Vanessa Reiser: Sure. @ Vanessareiser. LCSW. Yep. Mostly that’s where I am. I mean, on Twitter. I think It’s Vanessa Riser, SW. Facebook, TikTok everywhere you can find me. but also, as of late, the book is a big thing that we’re interested in really directing traffic toward.

Wendy Valentine: And how. How can we get that book?

Vanessa Reiser: Sure. So it’s@hachettebookgroup.com the book is Narcissistic Abuse, A Therapist’s Guide to Identifying, Escaping, and Healing From Toxic and Manipulative People. It comes out next Tuesday. and I’m very proud of it. It really aims to fuse the concepts of narcissistic abuse and cult abuse. So you will see a good amount of energy devoted to really highlighting what. That, you know, what that connection is. Because I think, for me, it was like such a light bulb when I figured out that this was about mind control, when I figured out that this is the way that certain people behave. And it’s very Pavlovian with the reinforcers, sort of Psych 101 stuff. That’s where it really clicked for me. So I really. I really aim to. For people to understand that. That piece.

Wendy Valentine: Thank you for everything you’re doing.

Vanessa Reiser: Thank you.

Wendy Valentine: You’re making a big difference. Yeah. You’re. You’re a good little light worker.

Vanessa Reiser: Thank you so much.

Wendy Valentine: Shine a light on a dark subject. Right. Like. But it’s. It’s good. And I’m hoping and praying that anyone out there listening, if they’re suffering in that type of relationship, that they get the help that they need, because that’s. That’s, They deserve more than that.

Vanessa Reiser: Yeah. It can be really, really scary for people, specifically if they’re trying to get out of a culture. When they call me sometimes, it sounds like I’m being punked. They’re so horrified because they’re wickedly outnumbered. and that can be confusing. It must be me. Everyone else believes this, so I must be the problem. So it can feel that way. But you’re not crazy like Dr. Ramani says. It’s not you. and, yeah. Find. Find support.

Wendy Valentine: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Vanessa Reiser: Thank you.

Wendy Valentine: Thank you, everyone. Have a great day.